Anonymous
12/23/2014 15:41
Subject: Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
PP, our "contemporary" mass music is awful! Praise-band-y, which is so unCatholic to me. Our sung Hallelujah before the Gospel sounds like we should all have tambourines and pass a pipe around, and I refuse to sing it.
Anonymous
12/23/2014 15:27
Subject: Re:Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I agree with previous PPs, that this is something you should speak to your priest about. If you do not find him approachable, find another one or perhaps find a retreat you can go to for a weekend that will have religious who know how to address the questions you have.
I was struck by several things in you post.
You do not believe in transubstantiation. This is a Catholic belief, but a difficult one. As a Catholic you personally are not required to believe it, just to want to believe it. I cannot tell from your post if you believe in consubstantiation, which also involves belief in the real presence. This is the view of Lutherans and most Anglicans.
However, with regard to Anglicans, beliefs about the Eucharist are all over the map--from those who believe in transubstantiation to those who see the Eucharist as purely symbolic, a view many Protestant denominations have. This is because Anglicanism/Episcopalianism is a creedal, not a confessional religion. They subscribe to the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed, but have no other foundational doctrinal statements, eg the Ausberg confessions of the Lutherans or the greater catechism of the Catholic Church. The Book of Common prayer sets out worship and does not set out doctrine apart from the creeds. Thus, there is a lot of room to accept or reject various doctrines.
You are not so jazzed by Mary. Well, she is one of the saints, the most honored to be sure, but the Church doesn't really require you to do much to honor her apart from attending mass on August 15. The rosary is strictly optional.
You feel you should be with God when and where you want. Well, there is certainly nothing in Catholicism that keeps one from doing that. You are required to attend church weekly, however, but from your post I guess you would plan on doing that anyway if you joined another denomination.
You want to see different sides of scripture. I don't know that you need to join another Church to do that. You can certainly read the Bible on your own and look up all sorts of things on the internet from various denominations and see what resonates.
OP, I think you should do some more reading and searching and seek out thoughtful people with whom you can discuss your concerns. That you are questioning and seeking is evidence to me that you are in fact practicing the search for faith that marks many good Catholics.
questioning and seeking is just as likely to lead away from the Catholic church, or anything you're questioning and seeking about. Many people make change in their lives based on questioning and seeking. It is hardly typical that such exploration results in returning back where you started.
I am the PP who wrote above. Yes, when you seek and question you likely will not return to where you started. In OP's case, she could end up with a very different view of Catholicism from where she is today and decide to remain. Or it could take her someplace else entirely.
Personally, I think the Catholic Church has a lot to offer--its universalism, its deep rich traditions, its embracing of human nature, etc. But whatever OP finds that helps her forge a path through this vale of tears is what she should choose.
Honestly, if I were ever to leave the Church it would be over the music. So hard to believe that the church that has inspired the world's greatest music should have such awful music in its US churches. It would help if they would ban all music by the St. Louis Jesuits and particularly Dan Schutte. (I am half joking.)
Anonymous
12/23/2014 14:40
Subject: Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
^ I didn't even know anyone besides Catholics crossed themselves at all! Interesting.
Anonymous
12/23/2014 14:34
Subject: Re:Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
Lutherans are not "reformed" or "Calvinist'. They do not believe in "double predestination" which is a hallmark of the reformed, Calvinist faith.
Lutherans believe in "consubstantiation" which is different from either the Protestant "in memory of" position or the Catholic transubstantiation. Consubstantiation means that Christ is really present "with, in and under" the bread and wine although the bread and wine do not actually turn into the body and blood of Christ. The bread and wine are like an iron rod stuck into the fire. The rod becomes hot through and through, but yet is still separate from the fire. Similarly, Christ is present through and through the bread and wine, but yet the bread and wine do not become Christ.
You can always tell the Catholics at a Lutheran church - they cross themselves left to right whereas traditional Lutherans cross themselves right to left - which interestingly was older way of doing it. Catholics changed the direction sometime after Luther split from the Catholic church. Eastern Orthodox also cross themselves right to left.
Lutherans believe in "consubstantiation" which is different from either the Protestant "in memory of" position or the Catholic transubstantiation. Consubstantiation means that Christ is really present "with, in and under" the bread and wine although the bread and wine do not actually turn into the body and blood of Christ. The bread and wine are like an iron rod stuck into the fire. The rod becomes hot through and through, but yet is still separate from the fire. Similarly, Christ is present through and through the bread and wine, but yet the bread and wine do not become Christ.
You can always tell the Catholics at a Lutheran church - they cross themselves left to right whereas traditional Lutherans cross themselves right to left - which interestingly was older way of doing it. Catholics changed the direction sometime after Luther split from the Catholic church. Eastern Orthodox also cross themselves right to left.
Anonymous
12/23/2014 14:02
Subject: Re:Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
OP, my DH was raised Catholic and left the church when we got married because we wanted a common faith (I'm Protestant, culturally Presbyterian but never consistently attended church when I was young). We went to an Episcopal church for many years. The Episcopal church was beautiful, albeit a little formal for my taste. I liked the thoughtful preaching and progressive politics, but I eventually got sick of the internecine squabbling. I also never felt like my faith grew or was particularly challenged. We subsequently moved to VA and have been attending a Methodist church for about four years. We love it! The traditional service is formal and familiar enough that DH feels comfortable (we even say the Apostles/Nicene Creeds), but the message emphasizing God's unending grace and love is radically different for me. I will say that DH was freaked out by the "modern" service because "it was SO Protestant." The downside is that the Methodist Church is not progesssive on gay/lesbian issues, which really gives us pause -- but I think/hope that is changing.
Anonymous
12/23/2014 13:45
Subject: Re:Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
Anonymous wrote:I agree with previous PPs, that this is something you should speak to your priest about. If you do not find him approachable, find another one or perhaps find a retreat you can go to for a weekend that will have religious who know how to address the questions you have.
I was struck by several things in you post.
You do not believe in transubstantiation. This is a Catholic belief, but a difficult one. As a Catholic you personally are not required to believe it, just to want to believe it. I cannot tell from your post if you believe in consubstantiation, which also involves belief in the real presence. This is the view of Lutherans and most Anglicans.
However, with regard to Anglicans, beliefs about the Eucharist are all over the map--from those who believe in transubstantiation to those who see the Eucharist as purely symbolic, a view many Protestant denominations have. This is because Anglicanism/Episcopalianism is a creedal, not a confessional religion. They subscribe to the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed, but have no other foundational doctrinal statements, eg the Ausberg confessions of the Lutherans or the greater catechism of the Catholic Church. The Book of Common prayer sets out worship and does not set out doctrine apart from the creeds. Thus, there is a lot of room to accept or reject various doctrines.
You are not so jazzed by Mary. Well, she is one of the saints, the most honored to be sure, but the Church doesn't really require you to do much to honor her apart from attending mass on August 15. The rosary is strictly optional.
You feel you should be with God when and where you want. Well, there is certainly nothing in Catholicism that keeps one from doing that. You are required to attend church weekly, however, but from your post I guess you would plan on doing that anyway if you joined another denomination.
You want to see different sides of scripture. I don't know that you need to join another Church to do that. You can certainly read the Bible on your own and look up all sorts of things on the internet from various denominations and see what resonates.
OP, I think you should do some more reading and searching and seek out thoughtful people with whom you can discuss your concerns. That you are questioning and seeking is evidence to me that you are in fact practicing the search for faith that marks many good Catholics.
questioning and seeking is just as likely to lead away from the Catholic church, or anything you're questioning and seeking about. Many people make change in their lives based on questioning and seeking. It is hardly typical that such exploration results in returning back where you started.
Anonymous
12/23/2014 13:42
Subject: Re:Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
Anonymous wrote:I agree with previous PPs, that this is something you should speak to your priest about. If you do not find him approachable, find another one or perhaps find a retreat you can go to for a weekend that will have religious who know how to address the questions you have.
I was struck by several things in you post.
You do not believe in transubstantiation. This is a Catholic belief, but a difficult one. As a Catholic you personally are not required to believe it, just to want to believe it. I cannot tell from your post if you believe in consubstantiation, which also involves belief in the real presence. This is the view of Lutherans and most Anglicans.
However, with regard to Anglicans, beliefs about the Eucharist are all over the map--from those who believe in transubstantiation to those who see the Eucharist as purely symbolic, a view many Protestant denominations have. This is because Anglicanism/Episcopalianism is a creedal, not a confessional religion. They subscribe to the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed, but have no other foundational doctrinal statements, eg the Ausberg confessions of the Lutherans or the greater catechism of the Catholic Church. The Book of Common prayer sets out worship and does not set out doctrine apart from the creeds. Thus, there is a lot of room to accept or reject various doctrines.
You are not so jazzed by Mary. Well, she is one of the saints, the most honored to be sure, but the Church doesn't really require you to do much to honor her apart from attending mass on August 15. The rosary is strictly optional.
You feel you should be with God when and where you want. Well, there is certainly nothing in Catholicism that keeps one from doing that. You are required to attend church weekly, however, but from your post I guess you would plan on doing that anyway if you joined another denomination.
You want to see different sides of scripture. I don't know that you need to join another Church to do that. You can certainly read the Bible on your own and look up all sorts of things on the internet from various denominations and see what resonates.
OP, I think you should do some more reading and searching and seek out thoughtful people with whom you can discuss your concerns. That you are questioning and seeking is evidence to me that you are in fact practicing the search for faith that marks many good Catholics.
The Catholic church needs you and your pledge money. So do other churches, but none so much as the Catholic church.
Anonymous
12/23/2014 13:41
Subject: Re:Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
Anonymous wrote:Keep in mind that you may not mesh culturally with Protestantism. It sounds trivial, but the Protestant churches I've been to can be a little too "All American" for people raised in the cosmopolitan culture of the Catholic Church.
And any sophisticated person would rather be cosmopolitan like the Catholics, despite the child molestation thing and the celibacy thing?
Anonymous
12/23/2014 13:00
Subject: Re:Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
Keep in mind that you may not mesh culturally with Protestantism. It sounds trivial, but the Protestant churches I've been to can be a little too "All American" for people raised in the cosmopolitan culture of the Catholic Church.
Anonymous
12/23/2014 12:41
Subject: Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
OP again, really thankful for these responses!!!
Anonymous
12/23/2014 12:33
Subject: Re:Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
I agree with previous PPs, that this is something you should speak to your priest about. If you do not find him approachable, find another one or perhaps find a retreat you can go to for a weekend that will have religious who know how to address the questions you have.
I was struck by several things in you post.
You do not believe in transubstantiation. This is a Catholic belief, but a difficult one. As a Catholic you personally are not required to believe it, just to want to believe it. I cannot tell from your post if you believe in consubstantiation, which also involves belief in the real presence. This is the view of Lutherans and most Anglicans.
However, with regard to Anglicans, beliefs about the Eucharist are all over the map--from those who believe in transubstantiation to those who see the Eucharist as purely symbolic, a view many Protestant denominations have. This is because Anglicanism/Episcopalianism is a creedal, not a confessional religion. They subscribe to the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed, but have no other foundational doctrinal statements, eg the Ausberg confessions of the Lutherans or the greater catechism of the Catholic Church. The Book of Common prayer sets out worship and does not set out doctrine apart from the creeds. Thus, there is a lot of room to accept or reject various doctrines.
You are not so jazzed by Mary. Well, she is one of the saints, the most honored to be sure, but the Church doesn't really require you to do much to honor her apart from attending mass on August 15. The rosary is strictly optional.
You feel you should be with God when and where you want. Well, there is certainly nothing in Catholicism that keeps one from doing that. You are required to attend church weekly, however, but from your post I guess you would plan on doing that anyway if you joined another denomination.
You want to see different sides of scripture. I don't know that you need to join another Church to do that. You can certainly read the Bible on your own and look up all sorts of things on the internet from various denominations and see what resonates.
OP, I think you should do some more reading and searching and seek out thoughtful people with whom you can discuss your concerns. That you are questioning and seeking is evidence to me that you are in fact practicing the search for faith that marks many good Catholics.
I was struck by several things in you post.
You do not believe in transubstantiation. This is a Catholic belief, but a difficult one. As a Catholic you personally are not required to believe it, just to want to believe it. I cannot tell from your post if you believe in consubstantiation, which also involves belief in the real presence. This is the view of Lutherans and most Anglicans.
However, with regard to Anglicans, beliefs about the Eucharist are all over the map--from those who believe in transubstantiation to those who see the Eucharist as purely symbolic, a view many Protestant denominations have. This is because Anglicanism/Episcopalianism is a creedal, not a confessional religion. They subscribe to the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed, but have no other foundational doctrinal statements, eg the Ausberg confessions of the Lutherans or the greater catechism of the Catholic Church. The Book of Common prayer sets out worship and does not set out doctrine apart from the creeds. Thus, there is a lot of room to accept or reject various doctrines.
You are not so jazzed by Mary. Well, she is one of the saints, the most honored to be sure, but the Church doesn't really require you to do much to honor her apart from attending mass on August 15. The rosary is strictly optional.
You feel you should be with God when and where you want. Well, there is certainly nothing in Catholicism that keeps one from doing that. You are required to attend church weekly, however, but from your post I guess you would plan on doing that anyway if you joined another denomination.
You want to see different sides of scripture. I don't know that you need to join another Church to do that. You can certainly read the Bible on your own and look up all sorts of things on the internet from various denominations and see what resonates.
OP, I think you should do some more reading and searching and seek out thoughtful people with whom you can discuss your concerns. That you are questioning and seeking is evidence to me that you are in fact practicing the search for faith that marks many good Catholics.
Anonymous
12/23/2014 07:44
Subject: Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
OP, I think you should go to a church where you accept the authority of the church to teach you about faith and morals.
I think you don't understand some of the Catholic doctrine that you are struggling with. Read the sixth chapter of John's gospel to understand transubstantiation. Jesus was exceptionally clear in his teaching on this point. The chapter also records what could be called the first schism, as those believers who could not accept this difficult teaching from him, "went away".
Jesus pretty clearly gave the "keys to the kingdom" to Peter and obviously gave him authority to lead the church that he founded. He also gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins (hear confessions). Logically, he could not have intended for this authority to die out with the apostles.
But if this stuff is a bridge to far for you, I think you should find a denomination that whose authority you will accept. Talk with your pastor about your questions and issues. This is exactly the kind of thing he should help you with.
I think you don't understand some of the Catholic doctrine that you are struggling with. Read the sixth chapter of John's gospel to understand transubstantiation. Jesus was exceptionally clear in his teaching on this point. The chapter also records what could be called the first schism, as those believers who could not accept this difficult teaching from him, "went away".
Jesus pretty clearly gave the "keys to the kingdom" to Peter and obviously gave him authority to lead the church that he founded. He also gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins (hear confessions). Logically, he could not have intended for this authority to die out with the apostles.
But if this stuff is a bridge to far for you, I think you should find a denomination that whose authority you will accept. Talk with your pastor about your questions and issues. This is exactly the kind of thing he should help you with.
Anonymous
12/23/2014 06:35
Subject: Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
Anonymous wrote:Cradle Catholic, feel myself eventually deciding to go Protestant in future (I'm in my 40s).
This isn't about scandals or anything, but rather realizing I believe the Eucharist is representative of Christ (not Transubstantiation), never been heavily into Mary, saying rosary, going to confession (although I do it). I feel I should be with God when and where I want, not necessarily each Sunday at Mass. Want to see different sides of Scripture and not what we're told by Rome, etc.
There's no anger, just my thinking there's no point in staying the course. DS has one year until confirmation and then I'd like him to decide if he wants to remain Catholic or come with me to a Protestant church, etc (DH was raised Protestant but doesn't really attend now).
Has anyone BTDT?
* It would be helpful if this didn't devolve into an anti-Catholic hateful thread, thanks.
Plenty of Catholics feel the way you do, and yet I cannot relate to your pull away from the Church. I feel at home there. Wish you well OP!
Anonymous
12/22/2014 22:56
Subject: Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
Anonymous wrote:22:35, thanks. I have never heard of total depravity.
So which Protestant denominations are Calvinist?
For the most part, that's what you'll be taught at Lutheran and Presbyterian churches, thought this is a teaching that has seen across pretty much all denominational lines. It's also called Reformed Christianity, so any congregation identifying with that is teaching Calvinism. For my own part, I don't believe the Bible supports this theology. John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." I think that leaves room for all of us to accept or reject Christ.
Anonymous
12/22/2014 22:48
Subject: Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?
22:35, thanks. I have never heard of total depravity.
So which Protestant denominations are Calvinist?
So which Protestant denominations are Calvinist?