But shooting rockets and missiles at civilians is not seeking peace. Neither is maintaining a charter (and yes I know you've said they dont mean it anymore) that pledges for the killing of Jews and the destruction of Israel. How can Israel ever hope to negotiate with them? What else CAN possibly come of the rockets except counterfire?

Anonymous wrote:Why will they do this "no matter what"? That sounds very pessimistic.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:I'm not sure that you are in a position to understand how residents of Gaza feel about anything. You are clearly not in a position to determine where they should live. Attitudes such as yours in which Palestinians are subhuman pawns to be moved around to Israel's advantage are a huge part of the problem.

I dont consider Gazans to be subhuman pawns at all. I think they are being exploited by Hamas who are supposed to be their leaders and should be given a chance to make a new life for themselves outside of Hamas' control. If anything, I want to empower them in a way that Hamas does not do. I did not suggest wholesale moving them, I suggested giving them the offer. It would be their choice.

If you want to marginalize Hamas, lift the blockade, remove the buffer zone, and encourage economic investment. Instead of creating an environment of hopelessness that feeds Hamas, create an environment in which people are improving their lives. People with nothing to lose will likely support Hamas or groups like it. Given them something to lose and they won't be so eager for conflict.

If you can suggest a way to do that while ensuring Israel's safety, i.e. wont allow for them to bring in weapons and build more tunnels with the cement and steel like they have been doing, I am all ears. But if Hamas was demilitarize and give up terrorism, then there is no negotiation.

Hamas will re-arm and rebuild the tunnels no matter what. The only difference will be whether the environment created is one in which the weapons and tunnels will be used against Israel. I assume that you realize that for all but one of the last six years, cement was embargoed. Most of the tunnels were built without the help of legally imported cement. So, will the next ones if necessary.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

I speak for them because though I'm not there, I have family and friends there and that's what they related to me. They stand and support the resistance! You can call them terrorists if you want, anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes. Maybe, one day my grandchildren will live in a world where a Hamas leader will get a Nobel peace prize, but a girl can dream right?

Not the ones who fought for freedom but indiscriminately attacking civilians - thats the difference.

Do you really know so little about history? Menachem Begin led the Irgun which, among other acts, blew up the Kind David Hotel. That attack killed many civilians, including a number of Jews. Just Google "Irgun" and see other acts that terrorist group committed. Begin went on to not only be the Prime Minister of Israel, but win the Nobel Peace Prize.

Your reasoning is similar to saying that F.W. de Klerk did not deserve the Nobel Peace Prize because he was initially very conservative, before turning against his previous principals and working with Nelson Mandela to end Apartheid. Menachem Begin did not win the Nobel Peace Prize for his actions in the Irgun, but rather for achieving peace with Egypt, and the Egyptian president Anwar Sadat also won the Nobel Peace Prize at the same time.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:I'm not sure that you are in a position to understand how residents of Gaza feel about anything. You are clearly not in a position to determine where they should live. Attitudes such as yours in which Palestinians are subhuman pawns to be moved around to Israel's advantage are a huge part of the problem.

I dont consider Gazans to be subhuman pawns at all. I think they are being exploited by Hamas who are supposed to be their leaders and should be given a chance to make a new life for themselves outside of Hamas' control. If anything, I want to empower them in a way that Hamas does not do. I did not suggest wholesale moving them, I suggested giving them the offer. It would be their choice.

If you want to marginalize Hamas, lift the blockade, remove the buffer zone, and encourage economic investment. Instead of creating an environment of hopelessness that feeds Hamas, create an environment in which people are improving their lives. People with nothing to lose will likely support Hamas or groups like it. Given them something to lose and they won't be so eager for conflict.

You have to realize that if Israel lifts the blockade and removes the buffer zone, it will only empower Hamas as the people of Gaza will see "shoot missiles at civilians, get what we want". I cant see how it will marginalize them when they come out looking like the heros.

I interpreted it as those people winning Nobel Peace Prizes for their actions. I probably interpreted wrong. As for today's terrorists possibly being tomorrow's Nobel Peace Prize winners, that is possible in some cases, so Hamas may someday in the future be a partner in peace, but now I don't think that is possible.


Fair enough. If a Hamas leader flew to Jerusalem today, a la Sadat, he would be shot on sight. But, who knows what the future holds. Frankly, I would be surprised if fighting doesn't break out again as soon as the current ceasefire ends.


And sadly if an Israeli leader flew into Gaza, the same would happen.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I interpreted it as those people winning Nobel Peace Prizes for their actions. I probably interpreted wrong. As for today's terrorists possibly being tomorrow's Nobel Peace Prize winners, that is possible in some cases, so Hamas may someday in the future be a partner in peace, but now I don't think that is possible.

Fair enough. If a Hamas leader flew to Jerusalem today, a la Sadat, he would be shot on sight. But, who knows what the future holds. Frankly, I would be surprised if fighting doesn't break out again as soon as the current ceasefire ends.

Anonymous wrote:
I interpreted it as those people winning Nobel Peace Prizes for their actions. I probably interpreted wrong. As for today's terrorists possibly being tomorrow's Nobel Peace Prize winners, that is possible in some cases, so Hamas may someday in the future be a partner in peace, but now I don't think that is possible.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

I speak for them because though I'm not there, I have family and friends there and that's what they related to me. They stand and support the resistance! You can call them terrorists if you want, anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes. Maybe, one day my grandchildren will live in a world where a Hamas leader will get a Nobel peace prize, but a girl can dream right?

Not the ones who fought for freedom but indiscriminately attacking civilians - thats the difference.

Do you really know so little about history? Menachem Begin led the Irgun which, among other acts, blew up the Kind David Hotel. That attack killed many civilians, including a number of Jews. Just Google "Irgun" and see other acts that terrorist group committed. Begin went on to not only be the Prime Minister of Israel, but win the Nobel Peace Prize.

Your reasoning is similar to saying that F.W. de Klerk did not deserve the Nobel Peace Prize because he was initially very conservative, before turning against his previous principals and working with Nelson Mandela to end Apartheid. Menachem Begin did not win the Nobel Peace Prize for his actions in the Irgun, but rather for achieving peace with Egypt, and the Egyptian president Anwar Sadat also won the Nobel Peace Prize at the same time.

Where did I say that Begin didn't deserve the Nobel? I'm sure that you have a great record defeating straw men that you create, but please stick to what I say rather than inventing things.

If you bothered to read the thread, you would see that the poster to whom I replied doesn't believe that people like Begin exist. They do exist. Because they exist, it is a fallacy to say things like "Hamas can never be a partner in peace."

It seemed like there was an implication of Begin not deserving the Nobel Prize, given that he, and the Irgun, have repeatedly, across multiple threads, been used as an example of Israeli terrorism. As for reading the thread, I did read the thread, and you cannot get the Nobel Peace Prize for violent actions. You can get it, however, for non-violent actions, even if you have committed non-violent actions in the past.

Right, and if you freeze water, it becomes ice. Citing irrelevant facts is, well, irrelevant. Here is how the conversation went:

"anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes"

"Not the ones who fought for freedom but indiscriminately attacking civilians - thats the difference."

"Menachem Begin led the Irgun which, among other acts, blew up the Kind David Hotel."

Then you: "Look over there! A straw man!"

So, again, as Begin demonstrates, today's terrorists can be tomorrow's Peace Prize winners. Therefore, it is unwise to say things such as "Hamas can never be a partner in peace".

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

I speak for them because though I'm not there, I have family and friends there and that's what they related to me. They stand and support the resistance! You can call them terrorists if you want, anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes. Maybe, one day my grandchildren will live in a world where a Hamas leader will get a Nobel peace prize, but a girl can dream right?

Not the ones who fought for freedom but indiscriminately attacking civilians - thats the difference.

Do you really know so little about history? Menachem Begin led the Irgun which, among other acts, blew up the Kind David Hotel. That attack killed many civilians, including a number of Jews. Just Google "Irgun" and see other acts that terrorist group committed. Begin went on to not only be the Prime Minister of Israel, but win the Nobel Peace Prize.

Your reasoning is similar to saying that F.W. de Klerk did not deserve the Nobel Peace Prize because he was initially very conservative, before turning against his previous principals and working with Nelson Mandela to end Apartheid. Menachem Begin did not win the Nobel Peace Prize for his actions in the Irgun, but rather for achieving peace with Egypt, and the Egyptian president Anwar Sadat also won the Nobel Peace Prize at the same time.

Where did I say that Begin didn't deserve the Nobel? I'm sure that you have a great record defeating straw men that you create, but please stick to what I say rather than inventing things.

If you bothered to read the thread, you would see that the poster to whom I replied doesn't believe that people like Begin exist. They do exist. Because they exist, it is a fallacy to say things like "Hamas can never be a partner in peace."

It seemed like there was an implication of Begin not deserving the Nobel Prize, given that he, and the Irgun, have repeatedly, across multiple threads, been used as an example of Israeli terrorism. As for reading the thread, I did read the thread, and you cannot get the Nobel Peace Prize for violent actions. You can get it, however, for non-violent actions, even if you have committed non-violent actions in the past.

Right, and if you freeze water, it becomes ice. Citing irrelevant facts is, well, irrelevant. Here is how the conversation went:

"anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes"

"Not the ones who fought for freedom but indiscriminately attacking civilians - thats the difference."

"Menachem Begin led the Irgun which, among other acts, blew up the Kind David Hotel."

Then you: "Look over there! A straw man!"

So, again, as Begin demonstrates, today's terrorists can be tomorrow's Peace Prize winners. Therefore, it is unwise to say things such as "Hamas can never be a partner in peace".

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

I speak for them because though I'm not there, I have family and friends there and that's what they related to me. They stand and support the resistance! You can call them terrorists if you want, anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes. Maybe, one day my grandchildren will live in a world where a Hamas leader will get a Nobel peace prize, but a girl can dream right?

Not the ones who fought for freedom but indiscriminately attacking civilians - thats the difference.

Do you really know so little about history? Menachem Begin led the Irgun which, among other acts, blew up the Kind David Hotel. That attack killed many civilians, including a number of Jews. Just Google "Irgun" and see other acts that terrorist group committed. Begin went on to not only be the Prime Minister of Israel, but win the Nobel Peace Prize.

Your reasoning is similar to saying that F.W. de Klerk did not deserve the Nobel Peace Prize because he was initially very conservative, before turning against his previous principals and working with Nelson Mandela to end Apartheid. Menachem Begin did not win the Nobel Peace Prize for his actions in the Irgun, but rather for achieving peace with Egypt, and the Egyptian president Anwar Sadat also won the Nobel Peace Prize at the same time.

Where did I say that Begin didn't deserve the Nobel? I'm sure that you have a great record defeating straw men that you create, but please stick to what I say rather than inventing things.

If you bothered to read the thread, you would see that the poster to whom I replied doesn't believe that people like Begin exist. They do exist. Because they exist, it is a fallacy to say things like "Hamas can never be a partner in peace."

It seemed like there was an implication of Begin not deserving the Nobel Prize, given that he, and the Irgun, have repeatedly, across multiple threads, been used as an example of Israeli terrorism. As for reading the thread, I did read the thread, and you cannot get the Nobel Peace Prize for violent actions. You can get it, however, for non-violent actions, even if you have committed non-violent actions in the past.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

I speak for them because though I'm not there, I have family and friends there and that's what they related to me. They stand and support the resistance! You can call them terrorists if you want, anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes. Maybe, one day my grandchildren will live in a world where a Hamas leader will get a Nobel peace prize, but a girl can dream right?

Not the ones who fought for freedom but indiscriminately attacking civilians - thats the difference.

Do you really know so little about history? Menachem Begin led the Irgun which, among other acts, blew up the Kind David Hotel. That attack killed many civilians, including a number of Jews. Just Google "Irgun" and see other acts that terrorist group committed. Begin went on to not only be the Prime Minister of Israel, but win the Nobel Peace Prize.

Your reasoning is similar to saying that F.W. de Klerk did not deserve the Nobel Peace Prize because he was initially very conservative, before turning against his previous principals and working with Nelson Mandela to end Apartheid. Menachem Begin did not win the Nobel Peace Prize for his actions in the Irgun, but rather for achieving peace with Egypt, and the Egyptian president Anwar Sadat also won the Nobel Peace Prize at the same time.

Where did I say that Begin didn't deserve the Nobel? I'm sure that you have a great record defeating straw men that you create, but please stick to what I say rather than inventing things.

If you bothered to read the thread, you would see that the poster to whom I replied doesn't believe that people like Begin exist. They do exist. Because they exist, it is a fallacy to say things like "Hamas can never be a partner in peace."

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Love how people make blanket statements about Gazans and Palestinians. Gazans love and support the resistance fighting for their liberation, regardless of what any poll says. They are standing with the resistance.....

Why do you claim to speak for them? I cant imagine they are happy that their leaders allow them to be bombed and block access to the bunkers for safety. Or that they support militants fighting from their schools and hospitals. Unless, they are all terrorists and in that case, they are not innocent civilians. You cant have it both way.

I speak for them because though I'm not there, I have family and friends there and that's what they related to me. They stand and support the resistance! You can call them terrorists if you want, anyone who has ever fought for their freedom through history was called a terrorist at some point and some went on to earn Nobel peace prizes. Maybe, one day my grandchildren will live in a world where a Hamas leader will get a Nobel peace prize, but a girl can dream right?

Not the ones who fought for freedom but indiscriminately attacking civilians - thats the difference.

Do you really know so little about history? Menachem Begin led the Irgun which, among other acts, blew up the Kind David Hotel. That attack killed many civilians, including a number of Jews. Just Google "Irgun" and see other acts that terrorist group committed. Begin went on to not only be the Prime Minister of Israel, but win the Nobel Peace Prize.

Your reasoning is similar to saying that F.W. de Klerk did not deserve the Nobel Peace Prize because he was initially very conservative, before turning against his previous principals and working with Nelson Mandela to end Apartheid. Menachem Begin did not win the Nobel Peace Prize for his actions in the Irgun, but rather for achieving peace with Egypt, and the Egyptian president Anwar Sadat also won the Nobel Peace Prize at the same time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I think that is optimistic and you are acting like Gazans have a choice. Either Hamas is committing its attacks from civilian homes and infrastructure with the ok of the civilians, in which case they are not innocent, or Hamas is forcing them, in which case the civilians losing interest will not matter.

Well by that logic Hamas can fire rockets in to civilian areas of Israel b/c the civilian population of Israel support the Israeli government. It's the logic of the fire bombing during WW2. It did not in WW2 and it will not work now.