Anonymous
Post 07/30/2014 14:25     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:Assuming Mary was a virgin and Jesus was conceived in her womb, not her Fallopian tubes. Did God implant a Zygote or Embryo into Mary's womb?


Do people still really believe in the virgin birth in 2014? Yikes.
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2014 14:21     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
takoma wrote:I'm terribly confused. I thought that for Christians Jesus WAS God, walking the Earth as man. To be a man, I suppose He had to have the experience of birth. If the body He occupied had DNA, it must have come from his mother. But through Joseph He was of the House of David, right? So perhaps he also received DNA from Joseph; surely God could have managed that by some means other than physical congress.

As many of you know, I'm an atheist and don't actually believe that Jesus was other than a normal mortal, but I have enough respect for those who believe to try to reason within their belief system. I hope it is not taken as an insult by anyone.


Yup, in my mind Jesus probably had Mary's DNA. Otherwise what was the point. Jesus was both divine AND human. So it would make sense that he had human DNA from a human mother. Interesting question as to whether he also had Joseph's DNA. I've heard Joseph referred to as Jesus' adopted dad, so that sort of implies that he doesn't have Joesph's DNA, but that's hardly advanced theological reasoning.
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2014 13:48     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:People, can we please get back to the original question? Was Mary the biological mother of Jesus or just a surrogate? I'd like to add the question: whose DNA diand d Jesus share?

Start a new thread about Islam and end times if you want to discuss that.


I apologize. To go back to your question, from an Islamic perspective, we were told that the likeness of Jesus is that of Adam , the first man and prophet:

"Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah regarding Allah's ability, since He created him without a father,is the likeness of Adam, for Allah created Adam without a father or a mother. Rather,
Allah said, He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!'' and he was.)"


From this, I gather that Mary was the biological mother because, God doesn't need a surrogate as in the creation of Adam, He didn't use one, nor did He use one for the creation of Eve, so He could've created Jesus the same way but chose to give him a mother. That's an interesting question though, I never thought about it. Would like to hear the christian perspective on this.

Adam and Eve were both created as adults and neither had parents. Jesus was born, not created and had parents. So it's not a similar comparison. Therefore the question of DNA is a legitimate question for Jesus but not for Adam and Eve.


Well, that was exactly my point . God created Adam & Eve from nothing, therefore God doesn't t need a surrogate to create anything. He could've very much created Jesus the same way, from nothing. The very fact that he was born is proof that he carries his mother's DNA.

The fact that he was born does not prove he carries Mary's DNA. Perhaps you need to review what Gestational Surrogate means.
Muslima
Post 07/30/2014 11:18     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:Jesus' message, as reported in the New Testament and the Quran, is pretty different. I won't go into details, but suffice it to say, there are different attitudes towards non-believers, women, what you eat, and more. The Islamic position is that the early followers of Christ got it wrong, so God sent Mohammed to correct things.
No, the islamic position is that the early followers got it right but most of them were persecuted and killed
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2014 11:14     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Jesus' message, as reported in the New Testament and the Quran, is pretty different. I won't go into details, but suffice it to say, there are different attitudes towards non-believers, women, what you eat, and more. The Islamic position is that the early followers of Christ got it wrong, so God sent Mohammed to correct things.
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2014 07:52     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:People, can we please get back to the original question? Was Mary the biological mother of Jesus or just a surrogate? I'd like to add the question: whose DNA diand d Jesus share?

Start a new thread about Islam and end times if you want to discuss that.


I apologize. To go back to your question, from an Islamic perspective, we were told that the likeness of Jesus is that of Adam , the first man and prophet:

"Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah regarding Allah's ability, since He created him without a father,is the likeness of Adam, for Allah created Adam without a father or a mother. Rather,
Allah said, He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!'' and he was.)"


From this, I gather that Mary was the biological mother because, God doesn't need a surrogate as in the creation of Adam, He didn't use one, nor did He use one for the creation of Eve, so He could've created Jesus the same way but chose to give him a mother. That's an interesting question though, I never thought about it. Would like to hear the christian perspective on this.

Adam and Eve were both created as adults and neither had parents. Jesus was born, not created and had parents. So it's not a similar comparison. Therefore the question of DNA is a legitimate question for Jesus but not for Adam and Eve.


so much talk about Adam and Eve

Do people SERIOUSLY believe these two existed?



fairy tale, folks, written by MEN who had no knowledge of science

and let's not forget sexist, as the blame fell on Eve . . .



A lot of believing, practicing Christians don't believe Adam and Eve were real people either. They're not even taught that in Sunday School or church -- they're taught that it's just a story, like so many other things in the bible.

Many do believe, however that Jesus in God incarnate, so DNA would become an issue in that case.
takoma
Post 07/30/2014 00:44     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
I'm terribly confused. I thought that for Christians Jesus WAS God, walking the Earth as man. To be a man, I suppose He had to have the experience of birth. If the body He occupied had DNA, it must have come from his mother. But through Joseph He was of the House of David, right? So perhaps he also received DNA from Joseph; surely God could have managed that by some means other than physical congress.

As many of you know, I'm an atheist and don't actually believe that Jesus was other than a normal mortal, but I have enough respect for those who believe to try to reason within their belief system. I hope it is not taken as an insult by anyone.
Muslima
Post 07/30/2014 00:09     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:People, can we please get back to the original question? Was Mary the biological mother of Jesus or just a surrogate? I'd like to add the question: whose DNA diand d Jesus share?

Start a new thread about Islam and end times if you want to discuss that.


I apologize. To go back to your question, from an Islamic perspective, we were told that the likeness of Jesus is that of Adam , the first man and prophet:

"Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah regarding Allah's ability, since He created him without a father,is the likeness of Adam, for Allah created Adam without a father or a mother. Rather,
Allah said, He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!'' and he was.)"


From this, I gather that Mary was the biological mother because, God doesn't need a surrogate as in the creation of Adam, He didn't use one, nor did He use one for the creation of Eve, so He could've created Jesus the same way but chose to give him a mother. That's an interesting question though, I never thought about it. Would like to hear the christian perspective on this.

Adam and Eve were both created as adults and neither had parents. Jesus was born, not created and had parents. So it's not a similar comparison. Therefore the question of DNA is a legitimate question for Jesus but not for Adam and Eve.


Well, that was exactly my point . God created Adam & Eve from nothing, therefore God doesn't t need a surrogate to create anything. He could've very much created Jesus the same way, from nothing. The very fact that he was born is proof that he carries his mother's DNA.
Anonymous
Post 07/30/2014 00:00     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:People, can we please get back to the original question? Was Mary the biological mother of Jesus or just a surrogate? I'd like to add the question: whose DNA diand d Jesus share?

Start a new thread about Islam and end times if you want to discuss that.


I apologize. To go back to your question, from an Islamic perspective, we were told that the likeness of Jesus is that of Adam , the first man and prophet:

"Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah regarding Allah's ability, since He created him without a father,is the likeness of Adam, for Allah created Adam without a father or a mother. Rather,
Allah said, He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!'' and he was.)"


From this, I gather that Mary was the biological mother because, God doesn't need a surrogate as in the creation of Adam, He didn't use one, nor did He use one for the creation of Eve, so He could've created Jesus the same way but chose to give him a mother. That's an interesting question though, I never thought about it. Would like to hear the christian perspective on this.

Adam and Eve were both created as adults and neither had parents. Jesus was born, not created and had parents. So it's not a similar comparison. Therefore the question of DNA is a legitimate question for Jesus but not for Adam and Eve.


so much talk about Adam and Eve

Do people SERIOUSLY believe these two existed?



fairy tale, folks, written by MEN who had no knowledge of science

and let's not forget sexist, as the blame fell on Eve . . .

Anonymous
Post 07/29/2014 23:14     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:People, can we please get back to the original question? Was Mary the biological mother of Jesus or just a surrogate? I'd like to add the question: whose DNA diand d Jesus share?

Start a new thread about Islam and end times if you want to discuss that.


I apologize. To go back to your question, from an Islamic perspective, we were told that the likeness of Jesus is that of Adam , the first man and prophet:

"Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah regarding Allah's ability, since He created him without a father,is the likeness of Adam, for Allah created Adam without a father or a mother. Rather,
Allah said, He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!'' and he was.)"


From this, I gather that Mary was the biological mother because, God doesn't need a surrogate as in the creation of Adam, He didn't use one, nor did He use one for the creation of Eve, so He could've created Jesus the same way but chose to give him a mother. That's an interesting question though, I never thought about it. Would like to hear the christian perspective on this.

Adam and Eve were both created as adults and neither had parents. Jesus was born, not created and had parents. So it's not a similar comparison. Therefore the question of DNA is a legitimate question for Jesus but not for Adam and Eve.
Muslima
Post 07/29/2014 09:35     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:People, can we please get back to the original question? Was Mary the biological mother of Jesus or just a surrogate? I'd like to add the question: whose DNA diand d Jesus share?

Start a new thread about Islam and end times if you want to discuss that.


I apologize. To go back to your question, from an Islamic perspective, we were told that the likeness of Jesus is that of Adam , the first man and prophet:

"Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah regarding Allah's ability, since He created him without a father,is the likeness of Adam, for Allah created Adam without a father or a mother. Rather,
Allah said, He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!'' and he was.)"


From this, I gather that Mary was the biological mother because, God doesn't need a surrogate as in the creation of Adam, He didn't use one, nor did He use one for the creation of Eve, so He could've created Jesus the same way but chose to give him a mother. That's an interesting question though, I never thought about it. Would like to hear the christian perspective on this.


Anonymous
Post 07/29/2014 07:52     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:People, can we please get back to the original question? Was Mary the biological mother of Jesus or just a surrogate? I'd like to add the question: whose DNA did Jesus share?

Start a new thread about Islam and end times if you want to discuss that.


This is all speculative like so much in the Bible.

Though it says "born of a woman" which would imply regular parenthood, in those days, probably meant a woman as a vessel for the man's (God in this case) seed - so the DNA would be all God's.

Although they didn't have a concept of DNA (the all-knowing God did, of course, but he wasn't talking), I'm assuming people back then noticed that sometimes a child looked much more like its mother than its father. Is there any reference in the Bible to that sort of recognition? - not necessarily about Jesus, but about any Biblical character. I can't think of any, but I'm not that well-versed in the Bible.

Also, is there any Biblical reference at all to what Jesus looked like? I know we westerns have a blue eyed image of him that if probably off, but I wonder how people in his time saw him.
Anonymous
Post 07/28/2014 22:56     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
People, can we please get back to the original question? Was Mary the biological mother of Jesus or just a surrogate? I'd like to add the question: whose DNA did Jesus share?

Start a new thread about Islam and end times if you want to discuss that.
Muslima
Post 07/28/2014 22:52     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:will they still be Jewish, or will they be muslim now?


We believe that since the beginning of time, there was only one religion and all prophets were sent with the one and same message. Abraham peace be upon him, is actually the one who called us Muslims according to the Quran. In the language of the Holy Quran, prophets are called Muslims, so were their followers:

Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he followed the Primordial Religion and hence was a Muslim, and he took not gods with Allah (HQ:3:67).

It is the faith of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation) (HQ: 22: 78).

Jesus' disciples are recorded in the Holy Qur'an as called themselves Muslims, when Jesus said, "Who will support me in the Message of Allah,?" "We are supporting Allah's message with you, we believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims", said the disciples" (HQ: 3:52).

And behold! I inspired the Disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger; they said, `We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'" (HQ:5:111).


So yes, all the believers who are going to be alive at that time will follow Jesus's teaching and his teaching will be Islam, so yes, they will be Muslims if they believe....


and if they don't believe?


The prophet saw said : “God will send the Messiah, son of Mary, who will descend at the white minaret on the eastern side of Damascus wearing two garments, lightly dyed with saffron, his hands resting on the wings of two Angels. When he lowers his head, beads of perspiration will fall from it, and when he raises it up, beads like pearls will scatter from it. Every non-believer who smells him will die, and his breath will reach as far as he is able to see.”

So , according to the islamic tradition, everybody who will be left on earth when Jesus peace be upon him will rule the world will be believers. They will all live peacefully under his guidance, religious sects will all disappear, wars are going to disappear. His reign will be marked by mutual respect, peace and prosperity among the people.


and the "nonbelievers" who die -- are they any remaining non-muslims, e.g., atheists, buddhists, Christians who don't accept that Jesus isn't coming to perpetuate Christianity? When you say all religious sects disappear, do you mean Jesus won't be Christian any more?


As i said earlier, we don't believe Jesus is Christian, we believe that all prophets are Muslims. The tradition doesn't go in details about what happens to buddhists, atheists, it just says "Non-beleivers". I don't know if there will be Christians who won't accept him, there isn't anything in the tradition about that. My guess is, when they will see him in person, it would be pretty convincing, right? But, who knows, God Knows best!
Anonymous
Post 07/28/2014 22:48     Subject: Mary - Gestational Surrogate or Biological Mother of Jesus?
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:will they still be Jewish, or will they be muslim now?


We believe that since the beginning of time, there was only one religion and all prophets were sent with the one and same message. Abraham peace be upon him, is actually the one who called us Muslims according to the Quran. In the language of the Holy Quran, prophets are called Muslims, so were their followers:

Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he followed the Primordial Religion and hence was a Muslim, and he took not gods with Allah (HQ:3:67).

It is the faith of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation) (HQ: 22: 78).

Jesus' disciples are recorded in the Holy Qur'an as called themselves Muslims, when Jesus said, "Who will support me in the Message of Allah,?" "We are supporting Allah's message with you, we believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims", said the disciples" (HQ: 3:52).

And behold! I inspired the Disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger; they said, `We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'" (HQ:5:111).


So yes, all the believers who are going to be alive at that time will follow Jesus's teaching and his teaching will be Islam, so yes, they will be Muslims if they believe....


and if they don't believe?


The prophet saw said : “God will send the Messiah, son of Mary, who will descend at the white minaret on the eastern side of Damascus wearing two garments, lightly dyed with saffron, his hands resting on the wings of two Angels. When he lowers his head, beads of perspiration will fall from it, and when he raises it up, beads like pearls will scatter from it. Every non-believer who smells him will die, and his breath will reach as far as he is able to see.”

So , according to the islamic tradition, everybody who will be left on earth when Jesus peace be upon him will rule the world will be believers. They will all live peacefully under his guidance, religious sects will all disappear, wars are going to disappear. His reign will be marked by mutual respect, peace and prosperity among the people.


and the "nonbelievers" who die -- are they any remaining non-muslims, e.g., atheists, buddhists, Christians who don't accept that Jesus isn't coming to perpetuate Christianity? When you say all religious sects disappear, do you mean Jesus won't be Christian any more?