Anonymous
Post 07/20/2014 12:41     Subject: Re:College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Well ..... Your kids should be volunteering... Not to get into college ... But really, they need to be doing something for others.


I couldn't give two Sh-ts about whether my kids get into Ivies so long as they become happy, kind, and we'll rounded young adults. Amazing how parents put education above all else, even above the social well being of their child. To each their own I guess. I am confident that my kids will go to a good college of their choosing and they will find their path, not the path that I choose for them.


I actually have a child at an Ivy. And two in state schools. I was totally hands off. We never did test prep or any of that nonsense. All three are on academic scholarships, none of it need based. Two are on full rides.

You don't have to put tremendous pressure on your kids in order for them to succeed. You just have to be willing to accept that success looks different for everyone.


It's my understanding that Ivy League schools only award need-based financial aid, not academic scholarships.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2014 12:31     Subject: College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:DS is 10 and we talk to him matter-of-factly about what it will take to be considered for a top college. We have also begun to take steps to position him on that track.

I'm not sure that being candid about this to him and engaging him in the discussion is tantamount to active "pressure." Maybe passive. I'm cool with that. He has big professional dreams of his own -- which he can discuss intelligently and without prompting -- and as an adult with more life experience I know damn well that he can't just show up the fall of junior year and announce ok! Ready to work and get going on that college package. Well, he could, but certain doors will be closed to him.


You sound crazy. Poor child...


He's really happy and visibly well adjusted actually, but thanks for your internet concern.

You know how most boys,during a certain period of their lives, imagine that "someday, I'll play NCAA/pro football basketball soccer baseball, by golly!!!!!" They do -- just admit it. Typically between ages 6-11 for the doomed pro team dreams, and up to age 18 of course for certain Division I, II, dreams.

And their parents, while not explicitly legitimizing their dreams to play running back for the Dallas Cowboys (or in other zip codes, play for the Olympic soccer team) absolutely take all kinds of actions to nurture these pipe dreams. Travel teams, development camps, tournaments where scouts will be oresent, skills camps with semi private coaches just ahead of spring tryouts for travel team XYZ. Home Run Baseball camp, MDX lacrosse,

Somehow, all of above is seen as healthy and appropriate and it's ubiquitous.

Why is it "sick" and "sad" when instead of putting a football in your 10 year old's hand and sending him off to development camp for a week you instead put a microscope in his hand and send him off to Budding Biologists sleepaway camp instead? Explain. No really, try it.

Because that's all we are doing with DS. And his dreams involve marine science instead of the NFL.


You sound crazy because he's 10 years old for goodness sake. If you and your spouse went to college, then at 10 he knows he going to college and will be prepared. Filling his head covertly or overtly with dreams of Ivy League and how to prepare for it at 10 is really silly and creating unnecessary pressure whether you want to see it that way or not. My DH and I grew up in working class and middle class families, respectively, who expected the best of us, which including going to college. Both of us got into well respected colleges and professional schools. We don't talk to our children about going into law, medicine or business like we are in but are expected to do their best. They talk about college without us planting thoughts into their heads. They know we don't live the way we do by being mediocre and not having ambition. It goes without saying. I did not seriously consider colleges until 9th or 10th grade. And, when my husband and I were growing up, they didn't have college tours. We talked to friends and relatives who went to great colleges about their experiences. And, our kids will have the same opportunity to talk to young adult friends and relatives about college including my husband and I. They also play sports and if they get academic and athletic scholarships, all the better just like DH and I. Let your son enjoy childhood without researching colleges at 10 and having intelligent conversation about professional aspirations. Again, you sound crazy...
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2014 11:26     Subject: Re:College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Well ..... Your kids should be volunteering... Not to get into college ... But really, they need to be doing something for others.


I couldn't give two Sh-ts about whether my kids get into Ivies so long as they become happy, kind, and we'll rounded young adults. Amazing how parents put education above all else, even above the social well being of their child. To each their own I guess. I am confident that my kids will go to a good college of their choosing and they will find their path, not the path that I choose for them.


I actually have a child at an Ivy. And two in state schools. I was totally hands off. We never did test prep or any of that nonsense. All three are on academic scholarships, none of it need based. Two are on full rides.

You don't have to put tremendous pressure on your kids in order for them to succeed. You just have to be willing to accept that success looks different for everyone.


Ivy League schools generally ONLY give need based aid.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2014 11:21     Subject: Re:College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's actually good to start early to make sure she has what her top choices want in terms of academics. I would be less worried about high school electives and volunteer hours now - but would start looking into what she does want to do.

I started taking bag-pipe lessons in 8th grade and continued thru high school - and got pretty. Weird, but I do think it gave me a little edge in admissions - it was what every alumni interviewer asked be about. My kid is an athlete and has no interest in a learning a weird instrument but we did get advice on what position he should play in what sport to give him the edge when applying to the Ivy League Colleges.


How and when did you do this? DH and I have thought a lot about what sports our kids would likely be good at based on their body type, size, and athleticism.


How old are your kids? If they haven't started playing sports yet, just look at what's available & ask them which sports they'd like to try. If they've already tried some sports, ask them which (if any) they'd like to continue playing. Don't select their activities for them based on how much "competitive edge" they might give your kids when applying for college. Let them participate in the activities they enjoy!
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2014 11:19     Subject: College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:DS is 10 and we talk to him matter-of-factly about what it will take to be considered for a top college. We have also begun to take steps to position him on that track.

I'm not sure that being candid about this to him and engaging him in the discussion is tantamount to active "pressure." Maybe passive. I'm cool with that. He has big professional dreams of his own -- which he can discuss intelligently and without prompting -- and as an adult with more life experience I know damn well that he can't just show up the fall of junior year and announce ok! Ready to work and get going on that college package. Well, he could, but certain doors will be closed to him.


You sound crazy. Poor child...


He's really happy and visibly well adjusted actually, but thanks for your internet concern.

You know how most boys,during a certain period of their lives, imagine that "someday, I'll play NCAA/pro football basketball soccer baseball, by golly!!!!!" They do -- just admit it. Typically between ages 6-11 for the doomed pro team dreams, and up to age 18 of course for certain Division I, II, dreams.

And their parents, while not explicitly legitimizing their dreams to play running back for the Dallas Cowboys (or in other zip codes, play for the Olympic soccer team) absolutely take all kinds of actions to nurture these pipe dreams. Travel teams, development camps, tournaments where scouts will be oresent, skills camps with semi private coaches just ahead of spring tryouts for travel team XYZ. Home Run Baseball camp, MDX lacrosse,

Somehow, all of above is seen as healthy and appropriate and it's ubiquitous.

Why is it "sick" and "sad" when instead of putting a football in your 10 year old's hand and sending him off to development camp for a week you instead put a microscope in his hand and send him off to Budding Biologists sleepaway camp instead? Explain. No really, try it.

Because that's all we are doing with DS. And his dreams involve marine science instead of the NFL.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2014 11:03     Subject: Re:College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Anonymous wrote:It's actually good to start early to make sure she has what her top choices want in terms of academics. I would be less worried about high school electives and volunteer hours now - but would start looking into what she does want to do.

I started taking bag-pipe lessons in 8th grade and continued thru high school - and got pretty. Weird, but I do think it gave me a little edge in admissions - it was what every alumni interviewer asked be about. My kid is an athlete and has no interest in a learning a weird instrument but we did get advice on what position he should play in what sport to give him the edge when applying to the Ivy League Colleges.


How and when did you do this? DH and I have thought a lot about what sports our kids would likely be good at based on their body type, size, and athleticism.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2014 09:58     Subject: Re:College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Well ..... Your kids should be volunteering... Not to get into college ... But really, they need to be doing something for others.


I couldn't give two Sh-ts about whether my kids get into Ivies so long as they become happy, kind, and we'll rounded young adults. Amazing how parents put education above all else, even above the social well being of their child. To each their own I guess. I am confident that my kids will go to a good college of their choosing and they will find their path, not the path that I choose for them.


I actually have a child at an Ivy. And two in state schools. I was totally hands off. We never did test prep or any of that nonsense. All three are on academic scholarships, none of it need based. Two are on full rides.

You don't have to put tremendous pressure on your kids in order for them to succeed. You just have to be willing to accept that success looks different for everyone.
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2014 09:54     Subject: College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Anonymous wrote:DS is 10 and we talk to him matter-of-factly about what it will take to be considered for a top college. We have also begun to take steps to position him on that track.

I'm not sure that being candid about this to him and engaging him in the discussion is tantamount to active "pressure." Maybe passive. I'm cool with that. He has big professional dreams of his own -- which he can discuss intelligently and without prompting -- and as an adult with more life experience I know damn well that he can't just show up the fall of junior year and announce ok! Ready to work and get going on that college package. Well, he could, but certain doors will be closed to him.


You sound crazy. Poor child...
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2014 07:09     Subject: Re:College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Well ..... Your kids should be volunteering... Not to get into college ... But really, they need to be doing something for others.


I couldn't give two Sh-ts about whether my kids get into Ivies so long as they become happy, kind, and we'll rounded young adults. Amazing how parents put education above all else, even above the social well being of their child. To each their own I guess. I am confident that my kids will go to a good college of their choosing and they will find their path, not the path that I choose for them.


What does that have yo do with volunteering?
Anonymous
Post 07/20/2014 01:46     Subject: Re:College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
College "pressure" -- not good, ever, but definitely not before sophomore year. College planning should start early though, IMO, and definitely by middle school.

I don't mean "planning" to get into a specific college, necessarily, unless it is honestly the child's dream for a logical reason, but in general having in mind the goal of eventually being admitted to a reputable university just makes sense when planning out classes and other decisions. Regardless of whether one attends an Ivy, a small liberal arts college, or any number of good state schools, there are still certain prerequisites that will have to be met in order to be admitted and be successful, so early planning is useful for that. Tracking for some classes starts in middle school, so it helps to have at least some idea of what classes one needs to take, and when, in order to reach the target class by senior year. If a kid hates, for example, foreign language, but you know they intend to go to college some day, I think the fact that most colleges prefer applicants with 3 years of language is good information to give them. This way, they see that there's an actual reason for them to take a class they don't like and genuinely try hard in it anyway -- because they know it will help them achieve a goal and it's not just some darn useless class mom and dad are making them take.

Actually, ignoring college for a second, a rising 8th grader would not be completely crazy to be considering the things you listed in your OP simply for the purposes of planning for high school -- which will start in around a year and also has prerequisites. Example -- academic planning for high school should definitely happen by the 8th grade year, especially if a kid is particularly passionate about certain a subject, like math for instance (or any other subject this is just for illustration purposes). Show them the descriptions of some advanced math classes the high school has, and if they get excited about one of them, help them make a roadmap to meet the prerequisites by junior year so they can be sure to take the class in senior year. This definitely needs to be known by 8th grade so the kid can be on the track that will lead to this happening. As for the extra classes, if a kid has a particular class they know they want to take at some point but they're out of sequence and not going to have the prerequisites, I say good for them for figuring out how to make it work. Also, I would not be surprised if the kids who have started tracking their volunteer hours are doing so with an eye towards meeting the NHS service requirement or the volunteer requirement levied by extracurriculars or faith-based activities they may be involved in. Heck, depending on the school some rising 8th graders may be working towards a HS graduation requirement. So, it could easily be working towards some other goal that isn't directly tied up with the idea of college or with "college pressure".

I think there are sensible and reasonable ways to have one eye on the future (in an academic context, this would be college, trade school, etc) from a relatively early age and I don't think starting some of this planning just before 8th grade is inherently out of line. Not knowing the exact situation I can't say for sure that it's not a case of exactly what you posted -- inappropriate college pressure too soon-- but I can see scenarios in which it is not and is instead perfectly healthy and prudent.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2014 22:37     Subject: Re:College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Anonymous wrote:Well ..... Your kids should be volunteering... Not to get into college ... But really, they need to be doing something for others.


I couldn't give two Sh-ts about whether my kids get into Ivies so long as they become happy, kind, and we'll rounded young adults. Amazing how parents put education above all else, even above the social well being of their child. To each their own I guess. I am confident that my kids will go to a good college of their choosing and they will find their path, not the path that I choose for them.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2014 20:57     Subject: Re:College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Well ..... Your kids should be volunteering... Not to get into college ... But really, they need to be doing something for others.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2014 20:51     Subject: Re:College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Check out the "College Confidential" message board, OP. These kids put crazy pressure on themselves and worry about college acceptance from middle school on. It is the world we live in.



Wow - that is one scary site! These poor kids are driving themselves crazy.


I don't find that site all that scary. That is what it takes to get into an ivy and frankly it's also what it took when I went 15 yrs ago. Admissions percentages haven't dropped that much, nor is it that much harder than it used to be -- it's just that there's more info out there due to active websites like CC. Frankly I think it's better to start focusing in 8th grade if the Ivys are what you want or drop the dream in 10 th grade if you realize your kid just can't hold on to a number 1-2 rank in the class, than it is to "follow your interests" for years, think you can get straight A's in 11th grade and do a bit of volunteer work to get into the Ivys the next yr and then be massively disappointed when it doesn't happen; I've seen that happen too many times.


Maybe kids won't be "massively disappointed" when they fail to get into the Ivys if they haven't been programmed to believe that the entire goal of high school is being admitted to an Ivy.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2014 20:43     Subject: College Pressures Starting Already?!!!


I live in DC. I grew up in DC. I went to NCS. I know EXACTLY how its done here and I know EXACTLY the damage it causes. I would like some of you to come back here when your kids are seniors and you see what I am talking about. Miserable and anxious children, miserable and anxious adults. Adults who are living through their children's college acceptances as if it is a measure of their parenting. Adults who feel their children failed them by not getting into a top whatever school. Children who have been so programmed that they are hugely successful in whatever they've been told to do and have not an independent thought in their heads. Or children who give their parents the big middle finger and say "you won;t it so bad, well I'm not going to give it to you." and proceed to pretty much intentionally screw up. I've seen all of this in children of parents just like you. This is about your ego and not your child's well-being.


Exactly. There are many paths to a successful & happy life. Getting into a top college isn't the be all & end all. Allow your kid to enjoy the last few years of childhood as it goes far too quickly.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2014 20:38     Subject: College Pressures Starting Already?!!!
Anonymous wrote:You people are SICK. If you see everything in your child's life transactionally (will this help him get into college? No? Then whats the point?) you will (1) rob them of their childhood, (2) Increase the likelihood of mental illness -- trust me on this one, my DC just graduated from high school and I saw the wreckage all around her., (3) and, it will be counter-productive. A child who has been programed is a child who doesn't learn to think for herself. This is why we are producing so many good little soldiers who will work, work, work but couldn't create something if their life depended on it.

There was a girl in my 7th grade class who started researching colleges because "you need to start early." Senior year she attempted suicide. True story. You may think your child is just fine with all of it but you won't know until later that it isn't the case at all.

If everything is pointed to that one task of getting into college, what happens then? How well prepared are they to take control of the rest of their lives?

In 10th grade you can start thinking about colleges. There is absolutely no need to do so before then and it could cause more harm than good.


100% agree!

FWIW, I attended an ivy. By the time I got there, I had no clue what my true passions were as I had spent so many years in which "getting into a top college" was my real only goal. This was primarily due to parental pressure but being surrounded by highly competitive, intensely driven peers with like-minded parents contributed, as well, I'm sure (l grew up in a largely career-minded, image-focused, affluent area that was in many ways similar to much of DCMV). I chose the college major I thought I "should" & graduated summa cum laude. 15 years later, I had a highly successful, lucrative career. It was not at all a difficult choice, however, to leave it behind & become a SAHM when my son was born just over 4 years ago (I already had 2 wonderful stepchildren, now 11 & 13, who now live with us fulltime, in case anyone is wondering why I'm on the "Older Kids and Teenagers" board ). This wasn't bc I think children are necessarily better off with a SAHP -- I don't-- but bc I knew I really wouldn't miss it ( & bc I'm fortunate enough to have a DH whose salary is enough for us to live well on --I don't want to imply that I'm unaware of how extremely lucky I was to be in the position where the enjoyment of my job was even a factor, much less the primary one).

I loved being a SAHM ( & still do) but around the time my son was 6 months old, I felt the need to get out of the house & do something that wasn't related to my role as a parent. After looking around for opportunities that fit my schedule,I began volunteering a few times a month for a cause that I always believed in but about which I've since become extremely passionate. I got so much out of it that I started volunteering several hours a week, instead, & -- barring some vacations, kids' illnesses, etc. & the 3-month-long "maternity leave" I'm currently taking due to the recent birth of my daughter-- have continued to do so ever since. My part-time volunteer job has provided me with far more fulfillment in just 3.5 years than my career did in 15. For the first time since elementary school, I'm truly enjoying my life, not just chugging along until I get my next break from it. This, to me, is sad, particularly since I know that,had I been given more of an opportunity when I was young to discover this personal passion even existed within me, I actually could've made it into a career almost 2 decades ago.

What if I had died in my 20s or early 30s? It would have been a tragedy no matter what, because the loss of a young life always is, but I think it would have been even more heartbreaking that I'd spent the majority of my short life pursuing the societal version of success rather than my own.I would've died still largely unaware of who I really am & what's really important to me.I'm not trying to be morbid but early death can & does happen. My cousin died of leukemia at 21 & my college roommate of ovarian cancer at 33. Car accidents killed my best friend's brother when he was 28 & my neighbor's daughter when she was 19. The fragility of life, perhaps more than anything else, speaks to the importance of achieving a healthy balance between planning for the future & living for today. Yes, life's not always going to be "fun"; there are often less-than-enjoyable things we have to do today to ensure we aren't left stranded tomorrow. Of course we need to teach our kids the importance of hard work & responsibility. But we also need to teach them that joy, intellectual & cultural curiosity, laughter, kindness, compassion, self-care, generosity, personal discovery, empathy, friendship &, of course, love are important, too. We need to allow them the time & space for all these things to truly be part of their lives.

Just to illustrate that the failure to attend an elite college won't ruin one's life:

My husband, though hardly a slacker as a teenager, also wasn't a "super achiever" in high school. He took honors & AP classes all 4 years in the two subject areas he truly excelled in, regular college prep classes in the rest & was, overall, about a B+ student at his non-magnet public school. He was on the soccer & baseball teams & was good, but not great, at both. He did volunteer work with kids with cerebral palsy for a few weeks every summer & weekly during the school year, not bc he thought it might help him get into college but bc he had a genuine desire to do so as a result of having an uncle with CP. He played the drums & decided not to be in the school band but, just for fun, he & his friends formed their own band (that they all now fully admit was pretty horrible). He then attended his state university which, while a pretty good school, is not one of the "public ivies". He picked a major that reflected both his interests & goals, worked reasonably hard while also having a wonderful time, graduated with a 3.1 overall GPA & a 3.8 GPA in his major, started his chosen career at the bottom then steadily worked his way up, both financially supporting himself & enjoying what he was doing every step of the way, & now has an excellent job in a field he loves.

My husband also actually enjoyed high school & has a lot of very fond memories of those years. When he first told me this, it was as if he told me he relaxed on the weekends by getting elective root canals! I have a few good memories of high school but I mostly just remember the almost constant stress & acute pressure. It was, overall, a pretty miserable time in my life. My husband is still friends with his core group of friends from high school;none of them attended an ivy or the like (Stanford, MIT, etc.), a top 20 national liberal arts college, or a "public ivy". Nonetheless, all of them have done quite well as adults, both professionally & personally. Whenever they get together & I hear them fondly reminiscing about those days, I admit to feeling a pang of jealousy & a sense of loss. Although my parents & school tried to convince me otherwise, I clearly didn't need to sacrifice so much of my adolescence in order to have a successful adulthood.

Yes, academics are important but such intense focus on achievement for the sake of college acceptances is short-sighted at best & harmful at worst. Some of my high-achieving peers, for example, struggled with major depression & anxiety, a couple to the point of experiencing actual nervous breakdowns, while others developed substance abuse problems &/or severe eating disorders. As we enter middle age, a few have yet to fully recover & at least 4 have died as a result of mental health issues that began in high school -- one died of a drug overdose, one as the result of anorexia & two committed suicide. Obviously, there may have been, & likely were, other factors (both genetic & environmental) that contributed to my classmates issues. I have no doubt, however, that the unhealthy focus on future success, even if was to the exclusion of present-day happiness, certainly didn't help, particularly since a highly disproportionate number of kids at or near the top of the class seemed to end up suffering from serious mental health issues (eating disorders in particular).

Please don't think you need to rob your children of their present for the sake of their future. Let them find & explore their passions, experience deep friendships & puppy love, spend time daydreaming & being goofy. Let them discover who they are so they can be themselves. Let them really experience & enjoy being KIDS.

*I apologize for any typos, spelling & grammatical errors, etc. I'm writing this while nursing my 3-week-old DD & am, like most parents of newborns , rather sleep-deprived