Anonymous wrote:OP here.

One of the summer camp instructors turned him on to the idea of the sign..she stated that another parent previously did that & they never had another problem. Personally, I'm all about giving the tough love (especially at this point) but I see the sign holding idea to lead to extreme emotional distress. We are sick and tired of people telling us that it is "just a phase" or a "kid thing" .. it's been an ongoing problem for over a year. We also have another DS who is 2yrs older and has always been 100% honest and would never ever steal. Our older DS does "tattle" a lot on his younger brother but he also enlightens us to his sketchy behavior that he manages to sneak past us. We are equally loving, fair, and place the same expectations on them both. There are not favorites in our household.

6yr old DS also "steals" snacks out of the kitchen and hides all the trash/wrappers/crumbs in the couch cushions, in his closet, under his bedroom furniture, and in the crack between his bed frame and mattress. Just another example of the ongoing lies/stealing. *We put everything out of reach, "grounded" him from all of his favorite snacks or extras and more. This has happened more than 5 times within the past year.

FYI, these sentences are incompatible. One sibling has power over the other and both know it even if you do not. All four of you need to be in family therapy. Youngest DS may be the identified patient (the one everyone thinks has the problem) but older DS and the different amount of trust you've developed in the two is playing a role here.

OP Here,

"I Don't Know." Eyes at the floor... his response to everything. Why did you lie about that? Why would you steal your friend's toy/snack? What can we do to help? What do you think is going to happen to you in the future? Nothing but more "I don't knows."

OP, these are not questions a six year old can answer. These are not questions even an adult can answer!

We reassure him all the time that we will not be nearly as disappointed if he owns up to his mistakes and is truthful. We repeat it multiple times to give him a chance to think about it and hopefully do the right thing and come forward on his own good will. No avail. Honestly, the problem started about a year ago and would never put him through anything physically traumatic for it or beat him. I'm sure we have messed up plenty of times throughout the past year, but not to the point of leaving him scared/confused/complex.


But it's obvious you DO punish him! Very badly -- you've taken away his snacks. You threaten him constantly. Why would he come forward?

And again, thank you for the post. Every bit helps. It takes a village!

If your child is stashing food waste in his room, schedule a regular clean up time with him. "It's time to go clean up the food in your room." Gently. Normalize it. Hand him a paper sack or a trash bag. "Go bring out all food trash in your rooom, everyone."

You are making this into such a huge, scary, abnormal, evil behavior that he is hiding the behavior from you and it is turning into a cascade effect. He knows even eating an apple in his room -- OH THE HORROR! -- is againt the rules so he hides the core. Then he hides a candy wrapper. And so on.

Stop it with the witch hunt. Normalize the behavior. Normalize the clean up. Make it a rule and ask him to follow through. Stop witch hunting, OP.

I don't buy that there are no favorites in your household and that your lovely tattling older child never lies. Oh please.

Anonymous wrote:By the way, I doubt this ever happened before at your son's camp. Probably the kind of thing the counselor heard happened a few years ago to some kid's friend's cousin at another camp.

Probably read about it on the internet. Counselor is a liar.

Anonymous wrote:Be on your child's side. You are his parent, not his tormentor.

+100 Best advice on DCUM, ever.

Op
1. The sign is awful
2. I would also call cps on that family as it would be a clear indicator of other poor parenting practices
3. Stashing food is not normal. Rather than cut him off from food, maybe say he can't leave the kitchen with it. This feels indicative of food issues NOT lying.

I think the lying is symptomatic of a bigger problem.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I second the recommendation to read nurture shock. I wonder if you started coming down hard on him too early when the first white lies came up and now he's not sure what to do. Kids who get caught for lying and punished harshly learn to lie better. Have you ever praised him for coming clean on his own? That small action would probably get you farther than harsher punishments. Please don't do the sign thing. Please. Ask him what he thinks is an appropriate punishment.

OP Here,

"I Don't Know." Eyes at the floor... his response to everything. Why did you lie about that? Why would you steal your friend's toy/snack? What can we do to help? What do you think is going to happen to you in the future? Nothing but more "I don't knows."

We reassure him all the time that we will not be nearly as disappointed if he owns up to his mistakes and is truthful. We repeat it multiple times to give him a chance to think about it and hopefully do the right thing and come forward on his own good will. No avail. Honestly, the problem started about a year ago and would never put him through anything physically traumatic for it or beat him. I'm sure we have messed up plenty of times throughout the past year, but not to the point of leaving him scared/confused/complex.

And again, thank you for the post. Every bit helps. It takes a village!

OP I have a kid with some of these issues. In his case it is very obviously a sad, ineffective way of trying to connect with people or elevate himself in the eyes of others. Examples: To a friend who just came back from London, "Oh, I loved London, too, when I went there!" To baseball teammate, "I made a diving catch just like that professional one time." "Oh, I read that book, it was awesome." "I just saw an eagle fly over the bus stop." and so on. The funny thing is that until he was 7 or so, he seemed incapable of lying, to an extent that also seemed very unusual. We are working with a therapist on anxiety and impulsiveness and it is a tough, slow road. But I want to add one thing ... as natural as those "Why would you do such a thing?" questions seem to parents, if you think about it, there is absolutely no good answer except "Because I am a bad kid." A six-year-old isn't developmentally ready to distance himself from the situation and come up with a reasonable assessment of his motivation or challenges. I know these questions have been around as long as there have been parents and kids and I think they bounce off of most kids. But I think this sort of question is especially damaging to a kid who already has self-esteem issues. I think it is much better to state rules and expectations very, explicitly and clearly and then later, when the emotions of the moment are gone, help the child reflect on the actions, talk him through it. Again, sticking with my examples, we might walk him through how great a feeling it is when you can share a cool experience with a friend but then point out how, that is NOT the feeling that happens after a lie, they do not connect, in fact he risks the opposite, making people not trust him and feel less connected. We don't expect child to contribute to this process really, it is more about helping him understand some of his motivations but also see some of the real, negative consequences.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I second the recommendation to read nurture shock. I wonder if you started coming down hard on him too early when the first white lies came up and now he's not sure what to do. Kids who get caught for lying and punished harshly learn to lie better. Have you ever praised him for coming clean on his own? That small action would probably get you farther than harsher punishments. Please don't do the sign thing. Please. Ask him what he thinks is an appropriate punishment.

this is not a caught in a white lie issue, this is a serious emotional psychological issue.

Yes, but it could have started with the small lies a year ago. Op is understandably embarassed and annoyed (I would feel the same way) but I had read nurture shock. So when my dd lied for the first few times instead of coming down with a punishment we talked about it and when she came clean we praised her for being honest. You want your kids to not be afraid to tell you the truth. She is 7 and as far as I know does not lie. Obviously I know that can change as she gets older and if she does lie to the extent that it hurts someone or is chronic there will be consequences, but I'm
Glad we set a precedent when she was young, because it's worked to our advantage for the past two years.

Anonymous wrote:By the way, I doubt this ever happened before at your son's camp. Probably the kind of thing the counselor heard happened a few years ago to some kid's friend's cousin at another camp.

Yes, perhaps the counselor is even A LIAR???!!!!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

One of the summer camp instructors turned him on to the idea of the sign..she stated that another parent previously did that & they never had another problem. Personally, I'm all about giving the tough love (especially at this point) but I see the sign holding idea to lead to extreme emotional distress. We are sick and tired of people telling us that it is "just a phase" or a "kid thing" .. it's been an ongoing problem for over a year. We also have another DS who is 2yrs older and has always been 100% honest and would never ever steal. Our older DS does "tattle" a lot on his younger brother but he also enlightens us to his sketchy behavior that he manages to sneak past us. We are equally loving, fair, and place the same expectations on them both. There are not favorites in our household.

6yr old DS also "steals" snacks out of the kitchen and hides all the trash/wrappers/crumbs in the couch cushions, in his closet, under his bedroom furniture, and in the crack between his bed frame and mattress. Just another example of the ongoing lies/stealing. *We put everything out of reach, "grounded" him from all of his favorite snacks or extras and more. This has happened more than 5 times within the past year.

Did the summer camp instructor who "turned him onto the idea of the sign" know what happened to that child's relationship with his parents? Did the child ever trust his parents again? Is that the kind of relationship you want with your child long term? That he remembers you with a sickening feeling of sadism? Is this something you would want to think about as a memory of your parents doing to you?

This is really serious that you would even think of doing this, it's so far beyond normal.

+1. PLEASE do not do this.

+2

By the way, I doubt this ever happened before at your son's camp. Probably the kind of thing the counselor heard happened a few years ago to some kid's friend's cousin at another camp.

I can tell you that if such an incident occurred at my child's camp I would take photos of the sign and alert CPS. I would also post the story everywhere on the Internet to ensure those parents knew what assholes they are. This is the kind of tale that goes viral on Facebook and people have to move or get death threats.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

One of the summer camp instructors turned him on to the idea of the sign..she stated that another parent previously did that & they never had another problem. Personally, I'm all about giving the tough love (especially at this point) but I see the sign holding idea to lead to extreme emotional distress. We are sick and tired of people telling us that it is "just a phase" or a "kid thing" .. it's been an ongoing problem for over a year. We also have another DS who is 2yrs older and has always been 100% honest and would never ever steal. Our older DS does "tattle" a lot on his younger brother but he also enlightens us to his sketchy behavior that he manages to sneak past us. We are equally loving, fair, and place the same expectations on them both. There are not favorites in our household.

6yr old DS also "steals" snacks out of the kitchen and hides all the trash/wrappers/crumbs in the couch cushions, in his closet, under his bedroom furniture, and in the crack between his bed frame and mattress. Just another example of the ongoing lies/stealing. *We put everything out of reach, "grounded" him from all of his favorite snacks or extras and more. This has happened more than 5 times within the past year.

Did the summer camp instructor who "turned him onto the idea of the sign" know what happened to that child's relationship with his parents? Did the child ever trust his parents again? Is that the kind of relationship you want with your child long term? That he remembers you with a sickening feeling of sadism? Is this something you would want to think about as a memory of your parents doing to you?

This is really serious that you would even think of doing this, it's so far beyond normal.

+1. PLEASE do not do this.

Be on your child's side. You are his parent, not his tormentor.