Is this just kids being kids, or are we really talking about gang activity? I assume kids get in fights at all middle schools at some point, but if it's gang-driven, that kind of freaks me out. Is there a way to distinguish? And back to the original question of the post, is the dynamic at Eastern any different than Sligo Middle School when it comes to fights or gang activity or whatever it is that causes these incidents?

Anonymous wrote:"Also, I think it's important to note that it's not like the school is bringing all these kids into the neighborhood from far away. These students live in the neighborhood."

I didn't realize that. Do you know who the kids are? Definitely multiple and geographically separated neighborhoods feed into Eastern. Even for elementary school in that neighborhood across from Eastern they have an old-school civil rights busing arrangement that tries to bridge the geographic and SES gap with a less affluent part of Silver Spring that is on the border of PG county. That out-of-neighborhood school is located in what was once an incredibly rough part of Silver Spring a mile or two further down University Blvd. Although I think the passage of time has improved that area dramatically, it would be wrong to pretend it's in the same neighborhood. So it may not be that kids are being bused from all over the county to attend the non-magnet part of Eastern, but I think you'll find that there are kids coming together at Eastern from very different neighborhoods that aren't easily walkable to eachother, with some of those neighborhoods comprised of modest single family homes and some of them having high-density low-income housing.

We live about three blocks from Eastern, but due to the gerrymandered boundaries, we are not zoned for Eastern. I see kids walk past our house from Eastern, and for the most part, they are just typical of kids that age. But these stories of fights and gangs are pretty scary.

Anonymous wrote:If it's kids from far away who are sticking around after school to fight, how do they get home afterwards?

I would just be very surprised if this is coming from kids in the neighborhood. It's a pretty quiet place and the parents are pretty tight with one another. There are public buses, friends / family with cars, a 30 minute walk home.... Who knows.

If it's kids from far away who are sticking around after school to fight, how do they get home afterwards?

"Also, I think it's important to note that it's not like the school is bringing all these kids into the neighborhood from far away. These students live in the neighborhood."

I didn't realize that. Do you know who the kids are? Definitely multiple and geographically separated neighborhoods feed into Eastern. Even for elementary school in that neighborhood across from Eastern they have an old-school civil rights busing arrangement that tries to bridge the geographic and SES gap with a less affluent part of Silver Spring that is on the border of PG county. That out-of-neighborhood school is located in what was once an incredibly rough part of Silver Spring a mile or two further down University Blvd. Although I think the passage of time has improved that area dramatically, it would be wrong to pretend it's in the same neighborhood. So it may not be that kids are being bused from all over the county to attend the non-magnet part of Eastern, but I think you'll find that there are kids coming together at Eastern from very different neighborhoods that aren't easily walkable to eachother, with some of those neighborhoods comprised of modest single family homes and some of them having high-density low-income housing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eastern parent here. The way I read the listserv traffic was that the principal probably did, indeed, respond initially with a "off school property, nothing we can do" attitude, but then the Eastern PTA president contacted her and posted that he had talked with Principal Crouse and "she understood the concerns". I don't think that anything would have happened without the further poke from the PTA president.

FWIW, there have been many, many security concerns at the school. This is definitely not the first time students have been "jumped" on the way home from school. DD has a friend who missed two days of school having been beaten up on the way home. There are fights at school and sexual harassment of girls is a consistently under-addressed problem (yes, slap-ass week was a thing for several semesters and unwanted touching still continues, although not in as highly organized a fashion). Kids are not necessarily "scared" of these behaviors because it is considered "normal" and something that will never change. Sad.

I have an inside perspective on what happened and I can assure you that this was not how it happened. The interpretation of the principal's attitude of "sorry nothing we can do" is not accurate. I understand that the parent was upset but this is not a fair characterization. The steps taken were taken before the listserv posts began to circulate, not at the behest of the (very dedicated) PTA president communicated with the principal.

I think sometimes people want to hear something specific (for example, "oh of course I will station teachers at points around the neighborhood with walkie talkies and dismiss students with behavior problems only to the custody of their parents") and when they don't get that, they jump to a carachterization that isn't entirely fair. Principals are limited in terms of what they can do without working with the police and MCPS security.

Also, I think it's important to note that it's not like the school is bringing all these kids into the neighborhood from far away. These students live in the neighborhood. This is a neighborhood-wide problem and while the school has an important role to play, the school doesn't cause them. I don't honestly know what people expect the school to do, beyond the disciplinary and administrative actions they've already taken.

Me again. I also want to say that Eastern has some amazingly dedicated teachers who run in-school and after-school programs designed to combat some of the social issues that lead to fighting, gang membership, etc. These include clubs for boys and girls that provide positive adult role models, activities that build self esteem and emphasize schoolwork, etc. They do a lot to combat social ills that are beyond the control of the school.

Anonymous wrote:Eastern parent here. The way I read the listserv traffic was that the principal probably did, indeed, respond initially with a "off school property, nothing we can do" attitude, but then the Eastern PTA president contacted her and posted that he had talked with Principal Crouse and "she understood the concerns". I don't think that anything would have happened without the further poke from the PTA president.

FWIW, there have been many, many security concerns at the school. This is definitely not the first time students have been "jumped" on the way home from school. DD has a friend who missed two days of school having been beaten up on the way home. There are fights at school and sexual harassment of girls is a consistently under-addressed problem (yes, slap-ass week was a thing for several semesters and unwanted touching still continues, although not in as highly organized a fashion). Kids are not necessarily "scared" of these behaviors because it is considered "normal" and something that will never change. Sad.

I have an inside perspective on what happened and I can assure you that this was not how it happened. The interpretation of the principal's attitude of "sorry nothing we can do" is not accurate. I understand that the parent was upset but this is not a fair characterization. The steps taken were taken before the listserv posts began to circulate, not at the behest of the (very dedicated) PTA president communicated with the principal.

I think sometimes people want to hear something specific (for example, "oh of course I will station teachers at points around the neighborhood with walkie talkies and dismiss students with behavior problems only to the custody of their parents") and when they don't get that, they jump to a carachterization that isn't entirely fair. Principals are limited in terms of what they can do without working with the police and MCPS security.

Also, I think it's important to note that it's not like the school is bringing all these kids into the neighborhood from far away. These students live in the neighborhood. This is a neighborhood-wide problem and while the school has an important role to play, the school doesn't cause them. I don't honestly know what people expect the school to do, beyond the disciplinary and administrative actions they've already taken.

Anonymous wrote:(yes, slap-ass week was a thing for several semesters and unwanted touching still continues, although not in as highly organized a fashion). Kids are not necessarily "scared" of these behaviors because it is considered "normal" and something that will never change. Sad.

These behaviors were common at my middle-class middle school decades ago, alas -- but in the category of "boys will be boys", not "behavior problem". I'm really glad that society has advanced since I was in middle school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually saw that on our listserv too. It's a small community and the posters are people we are familiar with. This was a very serious incident and is not just idle gossip. Law enforcement is now involved. I hope the community really presses the principal to be more accountable for the violent and threatening action of the students he releases out into the neighborhood. I don't think it's happening all the time and the really bad stuff happens only occasionally, but the reality is that it can be a pretty rough place and it's gotten to the point where many people in the surrounding community no longer feel safe because of the violence that goes unchecked. The principal says there's nothing he can do. It takes the police 15 minutes to get there, so by the time they arrive the kids have dispersed.

There's some misinformation in this post. The principal (a she, by the way) is working with MCPS security and MCPD to address the issue, and is addressing it within the school with kids. I don't think she ever said, "nothing I can do, it's off school grounds" but that's how people took it.

The school can take a number of steps in concert with the police, and I'm sure they will. Eastern does have a very rough element and MCPS has also chosen to place at the school a program for kids with anger management problems -- perhaps not the best place to do so. However, kids in the school are safe -- this happened after school, off school grounds, and is indicative of social issues that are part of the population feeding into the school. I am in and out of that school all the time and I've never experienced anything scary. I can tell you that most of the kids there are great and the school works hard to deal with issues that are typical of a school population that's generally low income, limited English speaking, etc.

Part of the issue with the incident currently making the listserv rounds is that the poster allowed her daughter to run up to the fighting kids and tell them to stop. The fighters then told the kid they were going to beat her up, too, which made the poster say, "they threatened to kill my kid." She needed to call 911 and then go into the school and call the school security staff, which is trained to deal with this kind of thing.

I"m not excusing the fighting -- far from it -- but people need to use common sense.

Did the parent "let" her child tell the kids to stop, or is there some basic instinct that prompts people to intervene when they see a 12 year old kid being severely beaten? I think this is a little close to blaming the victim.

PP here. No, no, I don't blame the kid! But she says "my daughter ran up to see if she could break up the fight while I called 911." I'm just saying -- people should use common sense when dealing with these situations. A 12 year old shouldn't be put in that position -- it just boggles my mind. I have a very tall and strong 14 year old boy and I would never allow him to run up and try to break up a fight!

While I understand your point that it might not be advisable/safe, I would be proud if my child decided not to be a bystander and tried to intervene on the side of helping the victim. I agree with a PP who says you are very close to victim-blaming.

Eastern parent here. The way I read the listserv traffic was that the principal probably did, indeed, respond initially with a "off school property, nothing we can do" attitude, but then the Eastern PTA president contacted her and posted that he had talked with Principal Crouse and "she understood the concerns". I don't think that anything would have happened without the further poke from the PTA president.

FWIW, there have been many, many security concerns at the school. This is definitely not the first time students have been "jumped" on the way home from school. DD has a friend who missed two days of school having been beaten up on the way home. There are fights at school and sexual harassment of girls is a consistently under-addressed problem (yes, slap-ass week was a thing for several semesters and unwanted touching still continues, although not in as highly organized a fashion). Kids are not necessarily "scared" of these behaviors because it is considered "normal" and something that will never change. Sad.

Here is the principal's response, posted to the Eastern listserv:

Eastern MS Community,
We are very aware of the recent concerns regarding negative behaviors demonstrated by our students in the nearby neighborhoods after school. The behaviors that have been reported include: profanity, vandalism, disrespect, fighting, and verbal threats.
In response to these reports we have done the following:
- Collaborated wiht MCPD to identify those responsible for vandalism.
- Included reminders of behavior expectations for students both on and off school grounds. These reminders will be repeated at the end of the day.
- Identified the students that were involved (as many as possible).
- Contacted MCPS security staff.
- The cluster security supervisor, Mr. Boatman, visited Eastern this morning to address the students that were fighting.
- Parents have been contacted.
- Consequences have been put in place for students as appropriate.
This afternoon
- An officer from the MCPD and Mr. Boatman will be at Eastern to meet with those students that we know to be involved in the negative behaviors in the neighborhood.
- School staff will monitor student behavior and travel at dismissal
I understand and agree that the behaviors that have been reported are frustrating and unacceptable. EMS has always tried to be a collaborative and positive neighbor. When we are aware of potential off-campus concerns we alert the local authorities immediately. When we are alerted to off-campus concerns (after the fact) we respond as best we can utilizing all resources available to us. We will continue to do all that we can to be a positive part of the community.
I hope that the behavior of a few does not overshadow the positive work that happens at Eastern on a daily basis. Overwhelmingly our 880 students are exceptional kids that do the right thing every day. Please feel free to reach out to me at any time via email at casey_b_crouse@mcpsmd.org or via phone at 301-650-6650.
Casey Crouse
Proud Eastern Principal

Which probably brings us back to the fact that a lot of the details are unknown to most of us because we're reading about it second hand, whether here or on a listserve. Hopefully everyone is ok.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually saw that on our listserv too. It's a small community and the posters are people we are familiar with. This was a very serious incident and is not just idle gossip. Law enforcement is now involved. I hope the community really presses the principal to be more accountable for the violent and threatening action of the students he releases out into the neighborhood. I don't think it's happening all the time and the really bad stuff happens only occasionally, but the reality is that it can be a pretty rough place and it's gotten to the point where many people in the surrounding community no longer feel safe because of the violence that goes unchecked. The principal says there's nothing he can do. It takes the police 15 minutes to get there, so by the time they arrive the kids have dispersed.

There's some misinformation in this post. The principal (a she, by the way) is working with MCPS security and MCPD to address the issue, and is addressing it within the school with kids. I don't think she ever said, "nothing I can do, it's off school grounds" but that's how people took it.

The school can take a number of steps in concert with the police, and I'm sure they will. Eastern does have a very rough element and MCPS has also chosen to place at the school a program for kids with anger management problems -- perhaps not the best place to do so. However, kids in the school are safe -- this happened after school, off school grounds, and is indicative of social issues that are part of the population feeding into the school. I am in and out of that school all the time and I've never experienced anything scary. I can tell you that most of the kids there are great and the school works hard to deal with issues that are typical of a school population that's generally low income, limited English speaking, etc.

Part of the issue with the incident currently making the listserv rounds is that the poster allowed her daughter to run up to the fighting kids and tell them to stop. The fighters then told the kid they were going to beat her up, too, which made the poster say, "they threatened to kill my kid." She needed to call 911 and then go into the school and call the school security staff, which is trained to deal with this kind of thing.

I"m not excusing the fighting -- far from it -- but people need to use common sense.

Did the parent "let" her child tell the kids to stop, or is there some basic instinct that prompts people to intervene when they see a 12 year old kid being severely beaten? I think this is a little close to blaming the victim.

PP here. No, no, I don't blame the kid! But she says "my daughter ran up to see if she could break up the fight while I called 911." I'm just saying -- people should use common sense when dealing with these situations. A 12 year old shouldn't be put in that position -- it just boggles my mind. I have a very tall and strong 14 year old boy and I would never allow him to run up and try to break up a fight!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually saw that on our listserv too. It's a small community and the posters are people we are familiar with. This was a very serious incident and is not just idle gossip. Law enforcement is now involved. I hope the community really presses the principal to be more accountable for the violent and threatening action of the students he releases out into the neighborhood. I don't think it's happening all the time and the really bad stuff happens only occasionally, but the reality is that it can be a pretty rough place and it's gotten to the point where many people in the surrounding community no longer feel safe because of the violence that goes unchecked. The principal says there's nothing he can do. It takes the police 15 minutes to get there, so by the time they arrive the kids have dispersed.

There's some misinformation in this post. The principal (a she, by the way) is working with MCPS security and MCPD to address the issue, and is addressing it within the school with kids. I don't think she ever said, "nothing I can do, it's off school grounds" but that's how people took it.

The school can take a number of steps in concert with the police, and I'm sure they will. Eastern does have a very rough element and MCPS has also chosen to place at the school a program for kids with anger management problems -- perhaps not the best place to do so. However, kids in the school are safe -- this happened after school, off school grounds, and is indicative of social issues that are part of the population feeding into the school. I am in and out of that school all the time and I've never experienced anything scary. I can tell you that most of the kids there are great and the school works hard to deal with issues that are typical of a school population that's generally low income, limited English speaking, etc.

Part of the issue with the incident currently making the listserv rounds is that the poster allowed her daughter to run up to the fighting kids and tell them to stop. The fighters then told the kid they were going to beat her up, too, which made the poster say, "they threatened to kill my kid." She needed to call 911 and then go into the school and call the school security staff, which is trained to deal with this kind of thing.

I"m not excusing the fighting -- far from it -- but people need to use common sense.

Did the parent "let" her child tell the kids to stop, or is there some basic instinct that prompts people to intervene when they see a 12 year old kid being severely beaten? I think this is a little close to blaming the victim.

Thank you for your helpful and informative post.