Anonymous
Post 04/21/2014 16:14     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I recently worked at a top (HYP) Ivy college as a psychologist in the counseling center. While the kids there are really great students and quite accomplished, I can tell you first-hand that not all of them are that psychologically resilient. I had many, many students on my caseload who struggled with anxiety, depression, eating disorders, self-harming, and even suicide. Believe me when I tell you that it is often the highest acheivers who are hardest on themselves and most susceptible to a variety of mental health issues.


I'm sure that's the case, but the retention and four-year graduation rates will be much higher at an Ivy than a typical state school or less selective college. So you'll see the stressed-out Ivy grad in your college counseling center, but the people who are less resilient and motivated at other schools will just drop out and the counselors won't witness their struggles back home.
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2014 16:10     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The college counselor at our private calls HYP, MIT, Stanford "the crazies". He keeps telling our kids that they can get an equally great (likely better) education at a hundred schools, none of which is as selective as the top 10.

What makes these top 10 schools "better" is nothing. What makes them hard to get into is popularity and perception. Even if your kid gets selected to go to one of these schools, it's like he won a lottery, not a measure of his innate value or superiority to those poor saps who were not so lucky.



Not true at all! Though I'm sure the thought helps you feel better about not being HYPMS material.

The education one receives at an ivy is indeed unique and much more challenging than what you'd receive anywhere else. There's a reason the atmosphere is often competitive and stressful.

And let's not talk about the level of intellect in the room that challenges your way of thinking and causes you to think deeply and more critically. The "Crazies" give you access to resources and opportunities you will find in few other places. And let's not talk about the networking.

Yes, you can get a good education and many, many other schools outside of the "Crazies" but to try to say there is no difference is ridiculous.


I wish this were true. But it isn't. My husband and/or I have been faculty at a) a #1 school, b) a #8 school and c) a #20 school. They are really, really different in terms of education and networking opportunities, and in the way that you'd expect. It's not worth going nuts over, but honestly, it's not all branding. It's just not. That said, the good kids at all of these schools (as you'd expect) are phenomenal and the worst kids are disasters. They all have different characters that definitely don't make them for everyone. But they just not alike. Not at all.


OK, we know that if Obama had never transferred to Columbia or if Bush 43 went to UMass, neither would have been president. But how come every place I have ever worked, they hire people from a wide range of schools and nobody's particular graduates stand out. You cannot sit in a conference room and think, "wow the Harvard grad is so much smarter than the UVA person"? I understand Yale attracting different students than Rutgers, but at some level the school can't matter that much.


I didn't say the grads were totally different. But the education and opportunities are different. At the top schools you learn from the people who are truly making things happen. Sometimes that's good, sometimes it means that those people are too busy to create a presentable class.

Your classmates and perception also matter. The students at the top 20 school were totally clueless about how to, say, work at a hedge fund. At the #1 school, there was a pipeline. At the #1 school you meet tons of kids with CEO parents, cabinet members, etc. This is great networking, and my brother, for example, has totally used this in his career as an executive. At the #20 school there aren't too many such students (though they do exist).

That isn't to say that things can't even out later and it's definitely not true that non #1 school students are doomed for life. Case in point, DH went to a #20 school for undergrad (and to some extent for grad). I went to a #1 school. DH is more successful than I am.

But it is just not true that going to the #1 school or the #20 gives you the same experience. All things being equal if you have the choice you need to look at what the school will do for you (and how much it will put you in debt). And you need to consider the intangibles that #1 schools often offer.

Anonymous
Post 04/21/2014 15:31     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The college counselor at our private calls HYP, MIT, Stanford "the crazies". He keeps telling our kids that they can get an equally great (likely better) education at a hundred schools, none of which is as selective as the top 10.

What makes these top 10 schools "better" is nothing. What makes them hard to get into is popularity and perception. Even if your kid gets selected to go to one of these schools, it's like he won a lottery, not a measure of his innate value or superiority to those poor saps who were not so lucky.



Not true at all! Though I'm sure the thought helps you feel better about not being HYPMS material.

The education one receives at an ivy is indeed unique and much more challenging than what you'd receive anywhere else. There's a reason the atmosphere is often competitive and stressful.

And let's not talk about the level of intellect in the room that challenges your way of thinking and causes you to think deeply and more critically. The "Crazies" give you access to resources and opportunities you will find in few other places. And let's not talk about the networking.

Yes, you can get a good education and many, many other schools outside of the "Crazies" but to try to say there is no difference is ridiculous.


I wish this were true. But it isn't. My husband and/or I have been faculty at a) a #1 school, b) a #8 school and c) a #20 school. They are really, really different in terms of education and networking opportunities, and in the way that you'd expect. It's not worth going nuts over, but honestly, it's not all branding. It's just not. That said, the good kids at all of these schools (as you'd expect) are phenomenal and the worst kids are disasters. They all have different characters that definitely don't make them for everyone. But they just not alike. Not at all.


OK, we know that if Obama had never transferred to Columbia or if Bush 43 went to UMass, neither would have been president. But how come every place I have ever worked, they hire people from a wide range of schools and nobody's particular graduates stand out. You cannot sit in a conference room and think, "wow the Harvard grad is so much smarter than the UVA person"? I understand Yale attracting different students than Rutgers, but at some level the school can't matter that much.
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2014 15:18     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The college counselor at our private calls HYP, MIT, Stanford "the crazies". He keeps telling our kids that they can get an equally great (likely better) education at a hundred schools, none of which is as selective as the top 10.

What makes these top 10 schools "better" is nothing. What makes them hard to get into is popularity and perception. Even if your kid gets selected to go to one of these schools, it's like he won a lottery, not a measure of his innate value or superiority to those poor saps who were not so lucky.



Not true at all! Though I'm sure the thought helps you feel better about not being HYPMS material.

The education one receives at an ivy is indeed unique and much more challenging than what you'd receive anywhere else. There's a reason the atmosphere is often competitive and stressful.

And let's not talk about the level of intellect in the room that challenges your way of thinking and causes you to think deeply and more critically. The "Crazies" give you access to resources and opportunities you will find in few other places. And let's not talk about the networking.

Yes, you can get a good education and many, many other schools outside of the "Crazies" but to try to say there is no difference is ridiculous.


I wish this were true. But it isn't. My husband and/or I have been faculty at a) a #1 school, b) a #8 school and c) a #20 school. They are really, really different in terms of education and networking opportunities, and in the way that you'd expect. It's not worth going nuts over, but honestly, it's not all branding. It's just not. That said, the good kids at all of these schools (as you'd expect) are phenomenal and the worst kids are disasters. They all have different characters that definitely don't make them for everyone. But they just not alike. Not at all.
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2014 14:40     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I recently worked at a top (HYP) Ivy college as a psychologist in the counseling center. While the kids there are really great students and quite accomplished, I can tell you first-hand that not all of them are that psychologically resilient. I had many, many students on my caseload who struggled with anxiety, depression, eating disorders, self-harming, and even suicide. Believe me when I tell you that it is often the highest acheivers who are hardest on themselves and most susceptible to a variety of mental health issues.


I'm sure that's the case, but the retention and four-year graduation rates will be much higher at an Ivy than a typical state school or less selective college. So you'll see the stressed-out Ivy grad in your college counseling center, but the people who are less resilient and motivated at other schools will just drop out and the counselors won't witness their struggles back home.


How about that poor girl at Penn who jumped off a roof? Just terrible. I know someone in counseling at a public Ivy where there are many with tremendous problems. We teach kids that getting in these places is the be all and end all. But at the end of any day, even the most successful person is still alone with themselves.

Sincerely,

someone who struggled emotionally at a dream school, dropped out, and eventually did well in a much smaller pond.
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2014 14:38     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:DD wasn't so lucky. Waitlisted at both low reaches, which I would have put as high matches based on grades and SATs alone. According to Naviance, the scores it takes to get into these schools from DD's school are significantly higher than what the common data set would indicate.

Students really are competing against kids from their own schools. But inexplicably, some kids from the same high school with lower grades, scores, and ECs got in. The whole process has been frustrating and mystifying. At least she is warming up to one of her match schools.

My DD was also wait listed at 2 and rejected at 1 school I'd call "strong match" due to stats and Naviance. She opted to accept a spring admission to a school that was more of a reach and is happy with that. But the entire process was such a mystery (and this is our 3rd time through it).


Many folks put way too much faith into Naviance.


Not just Naviance, but the whole process. When a college is choosing among 10 or 20 or 50,000 apps, there is no way to really compare kids coming from different backgrounds. Especially when so many high schools are not ranking, standardized tests are becoming optional, the level of rigor of courses is varying greatly among high schools, and so many kids are gaming the system in various ways. The process is expensive, and seemingly random. Congrats to those who it worked for, but it seems luck plays a much bigger part in this than anyone is willing to acknowledge.


College rankings are also gamed. If you think undergrad is tough, try business school, where there has already been a filtering before the process begins. A place that accepts only 2 out of 10 applicants must be missing a good number of people who could have excelled.
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2014 13:08     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
I recently worked at a top (HYP) Ivy college as a psychologist in the counseling center. While the kids there are really great students and quite accomplished, I can tell you first-hand that not all of them are that psychologically resilient. I had many, many students on my caseload who struggled with anxiety, depression, eating disorders, self-harming, and even suicide. Believe me when I tell you that it is often the highest acheivers who are hardest on themselves and most susceptible to a variety of mental health issues.


I'm sure that's the case, but the retention and four-year graduation rates will be much higher at an Ivy than a typical state school or less selective college. So you'll see the stressed-out Ivy grad in your college counseling center, but the people who are less resilient and motivated at other schools will just drop out and the counselors won't witness their struggles back home.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2014 22:33     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The college counselor at our private calls HYP, MIT, Stanford "the crazies". He keeps telling our kids that they can get an equally great (likely better) education at a hundred schools, none of which is as selective as the top 10.

What makes these top 10 schools "better" is nothing. What makes them hard to get into is popularity and perception. Even if your kid gets selected to go to one of these schools, it's like he won a lottery, not a measure of his innate value or superiority to those poor saps who were not so lucky.



Not true at all! Though I'm sure the thought helps you feel better about not being HYPMS material.

The education one receives at an ivy is indeed unique and much more challenging than what you'd receive anywhere else. There's a reason the atmosphere is often competitive and stressful.

And let's not talk about the level of intellect in the room that challenges your way of thinking and causes you to think deeply and more critically. The "Crazies" give you access to resources and opportunities you will find in few other places. And let's not talk about the networking.


I don't doubt this is true, but it is probably also misleading. If you look at the top 25-30 universities (or LACs), I am sure you will find plenty of anxious kids, stressed out over academics and other pressures just as you may at the ivies. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you found even more of it at the next rung of schools (the added stress of not getting into an ivy so I better do super well where I am). I am not saying that's right by any means-- and I certainly hope it is a small minority of students at any school -- but I don't see any evidence in the posts that it is worse at ivy league schools than other. ,


Yes, all those 95%+ 4-year graduation rates sure do engender a LOT of stress. I mean, shoot, almost 1 out of every 20 students might not graduate in 4 years? Oh, the humanity!


Sure, so they need to accept the cream of the crop. They need people who will be able to handle the challenge and curriculum without breaking. That's why they're so selective. It's not a 'popularity' or 'numbers' game.


I recently worked at a top (HYP) Ivy college as a psychologist in the counseling center. While the kids there are really great students and quite accomplished, I can tell you first-hand that not all of them are that psychologically resilient. I had many, many students on my caseload who struggled with anxiety, depression, eating disorders, self-harming, and even suicide. Believe me when I tell you that it is often the highest acheivers who are hardest on themselves and most susceptible to a variety of mental health issues.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2014 20:45     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The college counselor at our private calls HYP, MIT, Stanford "the crazies". He keeps telling our kids that they can get an equally great (likely better) education at a hundred schools, none of which is as selective as the top 10.

What makes these top 10 schools "better" is nothing. What makes them hard to get into is popularity and perception. Even if your kid gets selected to go to one of these schools, it's like he won a lottery, not a measure of his innate value or superiority to those poor saps who were not so lucky.



Not true at all! Though I'm sure the thought helps you feel better about not being HYPMS material.

The education one receives at an ivy is indeed unique and much more challenging than what you'd receive anywhere else. There's a reason the atmosphere is often competitive and stressful.

And let's not talk about the level of intellect in the room that challenges your way of thinking and causes you to think deeply and more critically. The "Crazies" give you access to resources and opportunities you will find in few other places. And let's not talk about the networking.

Yes, you can get a good education and many, many other schools outside of the "Crazies" but to try to say there is no difference is ridiculous.


Yes, all those 95%+ 4-year graduation rates sure do engender a LOT of stress. I mean, shoot, almost 1 out of every 20 students might not graduate in 4 years? Oh, the humanity!


Sure, so they need to accept the cream of the crop. They need people who will be able to handle the challenge and curriculum without breaking. That's why they're so selective. It's not a 'popularity' or 'numbers' game.


An EE degree at a place like Georgia Tech is probably significantly harder to get than most degrees at an Ivy. I knew someone who transferred into UPenn from the honors program at PSU and had a significantly easier time at the Ivy. Ivy league schools are chock full of smart kids, but they aren't significantly harder than most good schools when it comes to actually getting the degree.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2014 17:38     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The college counselor at our private calls HYP, MIT, Stanford "the crazies". He keeps telling our kids that they can get an equally great (likely better) education at a hundred schools, none of which is as selective as the top 10.

What makes these top 10 schools "better" is nothing. What makes them hard to get into is popularity and perception. Even if your kid gets selected to go to one of these schools, it's like he won a lottery, not a measure of his innate value or superiority to those poor saps who were not so lucky.



Not true at all! Though I'm sure the thought helps you feel better about not being HYPMS material.

The education one receives at an ivy is indeed unique and much more challenging than what you'd receive anywhere else. There's a reason the atmosphere is often competitive and stressful.

And let's not talk about the level of intellect in the room that challenges your way of thinking and causes you to think deeply and more critically. The "Crazies" give you access to resources and opportunities you will find in few other places. And let's not talk about the networking.

Yes, you can get a good education and many, many other schools outside of the "Crazies" but to try to say there is no difference is ridiculous.


Yes, all those 95%+ 4-year graduation rates sure do engender a LOT of stress. I mean, shoot, almost 1 out of every 20 students might not graduate in 4 years? Oh, the humanity!


Sure, so they need to accept the cream of the crop. They need people who will be able to handle the challenge and curriculum without breaking. That's why they're so selective. It's not a 'popularity' or 'numbers' game.


I recently worked at a top (HYP) Ivy college as a psychologist in the counseling center. While the kids there are really great students and quite accomplished, I can tell you first-hand that not all of them are that psychologically resilient. I had many, many students on my caseload who struggled with anxiety, depression, eating disorders, self-harming, and even suicide. Believe me when I tell you that it is often the highest acheivers who are hardest on themselves and most susceptible to a variety of mental health issues.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2014 17:22     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The college counselor at our private calls HYP, MIT, Stanford "the crazies". He keeps telling our kids that they can get an equally great (likely better) education at a hundred schools, none of which is as selective as the top 10.

What makes these top 10 schools "better" is nothing. What makes them hard to get into is popularity and perception. Even if your kid gets selected to go to one of these schools, it's like he won a lottery, not a measure of his innate value or superiority to those poor saps who were not so lucky.



Not true at all! Though I'm sure the thought helps you feel better about not being HYPMS material.

The education one receives at an ivy is indeed unique and much more challenging than what you'd receive anywhere else. There's a reason the atmosphere is often competitive and stressful.

And let's not talk about the level of intellect in the room that challenges your way of thinking and causes you to think deeply and more critically. The "Crazies" give you access to resources and opportunities you will find in few other places. And let's not talk about the networking.

Yes, you can get a good education and many, many other schools outside of the "Crazies" but to try to say there is no difference is ridiculous.


Yes, all those 95%+ 4-year graduation rates sure do engender a LOT of stress. I mean, shoot, almost 1 out of every 20 students might not graduate in 4 years? Oh, the humanity!


Sure, so they need to accept the cream of the crop. They need people who will be able to handle the challenge and curriculum without breaking. That's why they're so selective. It's not a 'popularity' or 'numbers' game.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2014 17:17     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The college counselor at our private calls HYP, MIT, Stanford "the crazies". He keeps telling our kids that they can get an equally great (likely better) education at a hundred schools, none of which is as selective as the top 10.

What makes these top 10 schools "better" is nothing. What makes them hard to get into is popularity and perception. Even if your kid gets selected to go to one of these schools, it's like he won a lottery, not a measure of his innate value or superiority to those poor saps who were not so lucky.



Not true at all! Though I'm sure the thought helps you feel better about not being HYPMS material.

The education one receives at an ivy is indeed unique and much more challenging than what you'd receive anywhere else. There's a reason the atmosphere is often competitive and stressful.

And let's not talk about the level of intellect in the room that challenges your way of thinking and causes you to think deeply and more critically. The "Crazies" give you access to resources and opportunities you will find in few other places. And let's not talk about the networking.

Yes, you can get a good education and many, many other schools outside of the "Crazies" but to try to say there is no difference is ridiculous.


Yes, all those 95%+ 4-year graduation rates sure do engender a LOT of stress. I mean, shoot, almost 1 out of every 20 students might not graduate in 4 years? Oh, the humanity!
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2014 17:00     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:The college counselor at our private calls HYP, MIT, Stanford "the crazies". He keeps telling our kids that they can get an equally great (likely better) education at a hundred schools, none of which is as selective as the top 10.

What makes these top 10 schools "better" is nothing. What makes them hard to get into is popularity and perception. Even if your kid gets selected to go to one of these schools, it's like he won a lottery, not a measure of his innate value or superiority to those poor saps who were not so lucky.



Not true at all! Though I'm sure the thought helps you feel better about not being HYPMS material.

The education one receives at an ivy is indeed unique and much more challenging than what you'd receive anywhere else. There's a reason the atmosphere is often competitive and stressful.

And let's not talk about the level of intellect in the room that challenges your way of thinking and causes you to think deeply and more critically. The "Crazies" give you access to resources and opportunities you will find in few other places. And let's not talk about the networking.

Yes, you can get a good education and many, many other schools outside of the "Crazies" but to try to say there is no difference is ridiculous.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2014 15:09     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
The college counselor at our private calls HYP, MIT, Stanford "the crazies". He keeps telling our kids that they can get an equally great (likely better) education at a hundred schools, none of which is as selective as the top 10.

What makes these top 10 schools "better" is nothing. What makes them hard to get into is popularity and perception. Even if your kid gets selected to go to one of these schools, it's like he won a lottery, not a measure of his innate value or superiority to those poor saps who were not so lucky.

Anonymous
Post 04/12/2014 05:52     Subject: This is why it's a crapshoot
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Today more students apply to these schools today than have ever applied to these schools before, that is why the admissions rate is so low.


Easy way to fix this:

1) End the Common Application.
2) Require all applications to be completed using paper forms and typewriters (including essays which had to be typed first on a blank sheet to test whether they would fit on the page).

Suddenly students would start applying to many fewer schools, like a generation ago, when this is how one had to apply to college.


I wonder how many of those who are blaming the Common App have had children apply to college since its inception. As a previous poster noted, it's simply incorrect to say that students just need to enter a credit card number and click. Every selective school has at least one supplemental essay in addition to the Common App essay, and AdComms give much greater weight to these supplemental essays. True, the Common App -- and, not incidentally, the computer -- relieve students of the clerical drudgery we went through (yes, I typed my college applications on an IBM Selectric), but that's not a bad thing. It frees students up to focus on presenting themselves in a thoughtful and honest way.

Here's the reality: there actually are many more qualified students applying to all these schools. Much of this is attributable to the greater connectedness in our world today. I'm a native Californian and Stanford grad of the '80s, and back then relatively few of my classmates cames from outside California. Those who did were predominantly from the Western states. My New Jersey roommate was exotic! Today, of course, students from all over the country and all over the world are competing for entrance into a Stanford freshman class that's not much bigger than mine was.

And, yes, most of these students are very strong candidates. At my last reunion, when I attended an admissions session, another alum cited the admissions rate and then asked -- in a clubby and rhetorical tone --"But how many of these applicants are really qualified?" The subtext here was obviously "well, my kid is qualified and therefore is going to breeze into this place". The admissions staffer immediately responded, "Easily 90%." There was a collective gasp loud enough that for a second I thought there had been an earthquake.