Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think OP is saying that atheists claim to be "good without God" and them come on sites like this and are mean to religious people. So thy are not good, they are mean, and that is hypocritical.

Sorry OP but I don't think getting down and dirty in a debate on an anonymous message board is "mean" enough to make an atheist "not good". If the atheist is not embezzling millions from their religious organization, molesting little children, or participating in the systemic degradation of women as religious tradition, or... etc. etc., then your whining about atheists being mean is just so..... lame.

It's so telling that you start your post with, I don't want to talk about the hypocrisy of religious people, only atheists - cuz you SO know that is a fight that religious people cannot win.

This is like one spouse forgetting to flush the toilet and the other cheating spouse complaining about lack of consideration. "Yeah but look at the mean thing YOU did".

I'll take my rep as a "mean" atheist for pointing out the evils of religion any day. You keep on tolerating hate, bigotry, backwards superstition and systemic corruption in your faith. See you on DCUM!

The difference between a religious person and an atheist, though, is the religious person knows s/he is fallible, sinful, imperfect, and seeks redemption for it. I think that's OP's point about the qualifier. It's not a matter of being a "fight that religious people cannot win." Religious people already acknowledge that and their religious are about trying to overcome that. It's a lifelong thing and a central tenet of faith.

Atheists, on the other hand, tend to be often wrong but rarely in doubt and feel entitled to act with impunity.

I disagree with the way you spin this. The religious person, in my experience, makes lots of broad statements about how OTHER people should behave, and then excuses their OWN behavior by saying what you've written above.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, what do you consider "good"? Can you list examples (not involving the church or God) that make a person good in your opinion? What sorts of behaviors make a person good?

Not calling somebody brain-dead just because you differ with them on anything at all, like religion or favorite colors or Virginia vs. MD.
Not calling somebody drunk or stupid because you want to avoid responding to a question.

A respectful discussion of belief and atheism? Let's do it! I'm fine with that! Unfortunately, it will likely get derailed within one page by the "believers are braindead" posters.

Ok, let me clarify please.

Every day life examples not dcum examples. Minor things, major things? Volunteering, working with the less fortunate, simply getting through a day without mocking or judging someone? Helping out where and when you can, recycling, not belittling people. Those sorts of things and of course anything else that comes to mind. IE: A friend of mine recently slipped and fell on some ice while crossing a busy intersection. Numerous people (roughly our age group -- early to mid 40's) carried on right past her. It was a young guy.. in his 20s likely.. who stopped and helped her. He actually held her arm while they crossed the rest of the way and didn't treat her like an old lady.

I agree with the bolded part, unfortunately.

OP here (I'm not 12:04, just to be clear). Yes, I think the people who walked past your friend are not what I'd call "good" people. We could talk about lots of different ethical situations, such as what our obligation is when we find a $100 bill in the street, and how hard we should try to return it. If it were a $20 bill, would our answers change? Although I'm sure we'd agree on a number of different ethical situations, I'm not sure how productive it would be for you and me to go down the list of possible ethical responses to numerous difficult situations, and that's not what I was going for here.

To be clear myself, I was responding to a particular thread, here: http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/367829.page . On it, atheists were talking about "being good without god" even as they were calling believers "brainless." I assume it was the same atheists making both points, because they were on a single thread. I could be wrong. But in this recent DCUM thread, that struck me as hypocrisy, and that's what I was calling out. My point was, "Do as I say, not what I do" applies to believers and atheists alike.

OK. I am the poster who asked about what you think makes a person good. I also believe people can be good without God/religion. I did not, and do not, call believers brainless or any other name that implies they are less of a person than I am. Which means that this thread really doesn't apply to me, or a whole lot of others.

With the title of this thread in particular it seems you are painting all athiests with the same brush. Clarifying that you were referring to a particular thread to start with would have been good.

Anonymous wrote:OP here again. To be clear: my point in bringing up some atheists' hypocritical behavior on that recent thread (http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/367829.page) is to get some of the more obnoxious atheists to maybe, possibly, could it ever happen, question their behavior.

And then the rest of us, atheists and believers, can have actual discussions. I'm totally fine with discussion belief with atheists who want to have *real* conversations.

That is all.

And what are "real conversations"? I think the problem is that you can't handle a real conversation on this topic. You only want to debate with an atheist if the atheist is willing to believe in god. Are you willing to honestly entertain the notion that god doesn't exist? That your belief in god is based on emotional need and not reason?

I didn't think so.

Anonymous wrote:If I understand OP, the claim is that anytime an atheist does not engage in discussion in the manner that OP considers polite and appropriate, the atheist is not acting in a moral way, and is therefore a hypocrite because the atheist has said that religion is not necessary for morality.

To me that's a little bizarre.

I think OP just can't hack debates with atheists and so, when she can't argue her point, she plays the victim and acts like the mean horrible atheist was mean to her.

I don't see atheists standing outside clinics and calling women trying to get healthcare sinners and whores. I don't see atheists telling people they are going to hell because of who they love.

And yet I've witnessed tons of incidents wherein Christians tell other people they are going to hell. Which is worse, telling someone they are going to hell or telling someone they are stupid? Which is worse, telling someone they are brain dead or trying to physically harass them while they exercise their legally protected rights to seek out the reproductive care of their choice?

I'm tired of religious people playing the victim, like they're the ones being persecuted. Meanwhile, they push to be able to deny people service, deny people healthcare, deny people spousal protections, all based on beliefs that have no basis in actual reality and are impossible to prove/disprove.

Believe whatever you want, but I think atheist are tired of people trying to convert them and tired of people trying to base laws and legal protections and even healthcare on belief instead of fact and science.

Most Christians will fall back on this argument that atheists are mean because they aren't open to believing in god. But most Christians I've seen enter into debates are not at all open to the possibility that god doesn't exist. I prefer honesty over being polite.

OP here again. To be clear: my point in bringing up some atheists' hypocritical behavior on that recent thread (http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/367829.page) is to get some of the more obnoxious atheists to maybe, possibly, could it ever happen, question their behavior.

And then the rest of us, atheists and believers, can have actual discussions. I'm totally fine with discussion belief with atheists who want to have *real* conversations.

That is all.

Anonymous wrote:
You don't think that OP is really just picking a fight while feigning an attempt at dialogue? Because it's clear from the title that OP is just in a bad mood, not looking to be taken seriously, otherwise he would have left out the comment about atheists accusing believers of being "sheeple." OP, if you want a mature, open dialogue, start with a less inflammatory subject line and opening post. Otherwise, responses will be as flip as your opener.

Huh? Talk about your double standards!

You seem to be saying that atheists can call out believers (especially Catholics!) for hypocrisy any day of the week.

But when a believer calls out an atheist for bad behavior, and uses actual examples like an atheist calling believers "sheeple" or "brain dead" or "drunk", then it can't be because an atheist has used such words in recent memory. Oh, no, never! It must be because the believer is "in a bad mood" and "feigning" dialogue and being "inflammatory" and not "mature" and generally trying to stir the pot -- exactly how many insults did you stick into that post, anyway?

Are you seriously trying to make this argument?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, what do you consider "good"? Can you list examples (not involving the church or God) that make a person good in your opinion? What sorts of behaviors make a person good?

Not calling somebody brain-dead just because you differ with them on anything at all, like religion or favorite colors or Virginia vs. MD.
Not calling somebody drunk or stupid because you want to avoid responding to a question.

A respectful discussion of belief and atheism? Let's do it! I'm fine with that! Unfortunately, it will likely get derailed within one page by the "believers are braindead" posters.

Ok, let me clarify please.

Every day life examples not dcum examples. Minor things, major things? Volunteering, working with the less fortunate, simply getting through a day without mocking or judging someone? Helping out where and when you can, recycling, not belittling people. Those sorts of things and of course anything else that comes to mind. IE: A friend of mine recently slipped and fell on some ice while crossing a busy intersection. Numerous people (roughly our age group -- early to mid 40's) carried on right past her. It was a young guy.. in his 20s likely.. who stopped and helped her. He actually held her arm while they crossed the rest of the way and didn't treat her like an old lady.

I agree with the bolded part, unfortunately.

OP here (I'm not 12:04, just to be clear). Yes, I think the people who walked past your friend are not what I'd call "good" people. We could talk about lots of different ethical situations, such as what our obligation is when we find a $100 bill in the street, and how hard we should try to return it. If it were a $20 bill, would our answers change? Although I'm sure we'd agree on a number of different ethical situations, I'm not sure how productive it would be for you and me to go down the list of possible ethical responses to numerous difficult situations, and that's not what I was going for here.

To be clear myself, I was responding to a particular thread, here: http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/367829.page . On it, atheists were talking about "being good without god" even as they were calling believers "brainless." I assume it was the same atheists making both points, because they were on a single thread. I could be wrong. But in this recent DCUM thread, that struck me as hypocrisy, and that's what I was calling out. My point was, "Do as I say, not what I do" applies to believers and atheists alike.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, what do you consider "good"? Can you list examples (not involving the church or God) that make a person good in your opinion? What sorts of behaviors make a person good?

Not calling somebody brain-dead just because you differ with them on anything at all, like religion or favorite colors or Virginia vs. MD.
Not calling somebody drunk or stupid because you want to avoid responding to a question.

A respectful discussion of belief and atheism? Let's do it! I'm fine with that! Unfortunately, it will likely get derailed within one page by the "believers are braindead" posters.

Ok, let me clarify please.

Every day life examples not dcum examples. Minor things, major things? Volunteering, working with the less fortunate, simply getting through a day without mocking or judging someone? Helping out where and when you can, recycling, not belittling people. Those sorts of things and of course anything else that comes to mind. IE: A friend of mine recently slipped and fell on some ice while crossing a busy intersection. Numerous people (roughly our age group -- early to mid 40's) carried on right past her. It was a young guy.. in his 20s likely.. who stopped and helped her. He actually held her arm while they crossed the rest of the way and didn't treat her like an old lady.

I agree with the bolded part, unfortunately.

I don't understand. Are you saying that these are examples of things that atheists do or don't do? Or are you just saying these are examples of being good, outside of religion?

Yes, just some things off the top of my head. Doesn't matter if you're an atheist, or what religion you may believe in, practice or not. I was trying to think of things that might be seen in a daily life without knowing if the person believes or not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:note: Yes, of course some believers are hypocrites. But that's not the subject of this thread. If you want to talk about religious hypocrisy, there are a baziliion DCUM threads already dedicated to that subject. So you're welcome to take yourself to one of those threads and bash hypocritical believers there. Let's stick to the header subject on this thread.

This thread is about those atheists who talk about being "good without god" and then slam believers for being brainless. Or those atheists who hijack discussions of faith to talk about sheeple and fairies at the bottom of the garden and that oh-so-worn-out FSM. Or the anti-Catholic bigots (I'm not Catholic).

"Good without god"? It doesn't often seem that way. A handful of DCUM's atheists are thoughtful, introspective, and willing to engage in discussion. But the majority -- not so much.

Discuss.

Sounds like you're really insecure, OP. Where is your god now?

Oh yay.

You don't think that OP is really just picking a fight while feigning an attempt at dialogue? Because it's clear from the title that OP is just in a bad mood, not looking to be taken seriously, otherwise he would have left out the comment about atheists accusing believers of being "sheeple." OP, if you want a mature, open dialogue, start with a less inflammatory subject line and opening post. Otherwise, responses will be as flip as your opener.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, what do you consider "good"? Can you list examples (not involving the church or God) that make a person good in your opinion? What sorts of behaviors make a person good?

Not calling somebody brain-dead just because you differ with them on anything at all, like religion or favorite colors or Virginia vs. MD.
Not calling somebody drunk or stupid because you want to avoid responding to a question.

A respectful discussion of belief and atheism? Let's do it! I'm fine with that! Unfortunately, it will likely get derailed within one page by the "believers are braindead" posters.

Ok, let me clarify please.

Every day life examples not dcum examples. Minor things, major things? Volunteering, working with the less fortunate, simply getting through a day without mocking or judging someone? Helping out where and when you can, recycling, not belittling people. Those sorts of things and of course anything else that comes to mind. IE: A friend of mine recently slipped and fell on some ice while crossing a busy intersection. Numerous people (roughly our age group -- early to mid 40's) carried on right past her. It was a young guy.. in his 20s likely.. who stopped and helped her. He actually held her arm while they crossed the rest of the way and didn't treat her like an old lady.

I agree with the bolded part, unfortunately.

I don't understand. Are you saying that these are examples of things that atheists do or don't do? Or are you just saying these are examples of being good, outside of religion?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, what do you consider "good"? Can you list examples (not involving the church or God) that make a person good in your opinion? What sorts of behaviors make a person good?

Not calling somebody brain-dead just because you differ with them on anything at all, like religion or favorite colors or Virginia vs. MD.
Not calling somebody drunk or stupid because you want to avoid responding to a question.

A respectful discussion of belief and atheism? Let's do it! I'm fine with that! Unfortunately, it will likely get derailed within one page by the "believers are braindead" posters.

Ok, let me clarify please.

Every day life examples not dcum examples. Minor things, major things? Volunteering, working with the less fortunate, simply getting through a day without mocking or judging someone? Helping out where and when you can, recycling, not belittling people. Those sorts of things and of course anything else that comes to mind. IE: A friend of mine recently slipped and fell on some ice while crossing a busy intersection. Numerous people (roughly our age group -- early to mid 40's) carried on right past her. It was a young guy.. in his 20s likely.. who stopped and helped her. He actually held her arm while they crossed the rest of the way and didn't treat her like an old lady.

I agree with the bolded part, unfortunately.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a big problem with conversations about faith between believers and non-believers, is the use of the bible as a source. Believers believe the bible is truth while atheists don't. We cannot have a discussion where one person is using a source that the other thinks is completely in left field. The believer thinks that by completely dismissing the bible, the atheist is being disrespectful. I don't know how to get past this first barrier of contention.

This, completely and whole heartedly.

I think we see the terrible examples (on either side) posting on dcum.

I do enjoy reading a good discussion about religion. I left the church and won't go back, but I still enjoy reading and yes, even debating and asking questions. Not to be rude or disrespectful but because I simply don't get it. Quoting the bible does nothing to explain it to me. That's when I get annoyed.

I know why I left the church. When I reference that I'm referring to myself.. not every believer posting on a thread on dcum. Yet my views are seen as disrespectful. Maybe I don't always make sense but that's because I don't have everything all figured out.

Different poster here: I left the church for a different reason. I just can't see taking my kids to church after all the scandals. If god is everywhere, let them find god at home. If "they'll know we are Christians by our love," as the hymn goes, then the church is comprised of the biggest hypocrites of all for consistently denying the scandals, making ad hominem attacks at victims, making secret settlements, transferring priests to other parishes ... need I go on? This scandal has proceeded for decades. Note that such scandals are not limited to the Catholic church. If in doubt, Google it.

Compared to that, any minor mistakes, insensitivity, improper grammar or "mean" posts by atheists on DCUM are utterly meaningless.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see the hypocrisy either. I can see how OP might not enjoy talking with atheists about religion, but I don't see what's hypocritical here.

I'm OP and, actually, I love talking with atheists about religion. I've read lots of books about atheism and belief, and I'm totally open to questioning my own beliefs, in fact I think it's necessary to question your beliefs. What I don't appreciate is atheists claiming their "good without god" and then derailing conversations with the brain-dead/you're drunk talk. If you're interested in "talking," then I submit that you can't actually "talk" with such people.

^^^ they're not their, obviously

Anonymous wrote:I don't see the hypocrisy either. I can see how OP might not enjoy talking with atheists about religion, but I don't see what's hypocritical here.

I'm OP and, actually, I love talking with atheists about religion. I've read lots of books about atheism and belief, and I'm totally open to questioning my own beliefs, in fact I think it's necessary to question your beliefs. What I don't appreciate is atheists claiming their "good without god" and then derailing conversations with the brain-dead/you're drunk talk. If you're interested in "talking," then I submit that you can't actually "talk" with such people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:note: Yes, of course some believers are hypocrites. But that's not the subject of this thread. If you want to talk about religious hypocrisy, there are a baziliion DCUM threads already dedicated to that subject. So you're welcome to take yourself to one of those threads and bash hypocritical believers there. Let's stick to the header subject on this thread.

This thread is about those atheists who talk about being "good without god" and then slam believers for being brainless. Or those atheists who hijack discussions of faith to talk about sheeple and fairies at the bottom of the garden and that oh-so-worn-out FSM. Or the anti-Catholic bigots (I'm not Catholic).

"Good without god"? It doesn't often seem that way. A handful of DCUM's atheists are thoughtful, introspective, and willing to engage in discussion. But the majority -- not so much.

Discuss.

Sounds like you're really insecure, OP. Where is your god now?

Oh yay.