Anonymous
Post 03/03/2014 10:35     Subject: "My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
I think this article sums it up better than I could have said for myself


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/opinion/sunday/kristof-the-compassion-gap.html?_r=0

Anonymous
Post 03/03/2014 09:16     Subject: Re:"My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
Anyone who doesn't think ghetto culture is patterned, modeled, taught and learned beginning at an early age is obtuse.
obtuse - annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
"he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse"

It's learning that has to be deprogrammed and replaced with something else. Otherwise it's self-defeating and self-limiting and will constantly undermine kids and if the cycle isn't broken, it will continue on for generation after generation. Kids make themselves their own worst enemies when they continue down a path of ghetto culture.


Do you think that about every black kid? Or just most of them?

Anonymous
Post 03/03/2014 07:58     Subject: Re:"My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:


To the people who think that they are somehow superior because they went to a good university, have a good job, and give their children the moon to ensure their success...

most of you have what you have because of your parents and their parents.

It's not your brilliance. It's not that you are more special.

Even if your parents were poor, they likely had self-respect. Even if your grandparents scraped for food, they likely weren't told everyday of their lives that they were worthless.

Stop flattering yourself... and stop looking down on others who came from different circumstances (whether race, class or whatever else).


So very true.


My parents were dirt poor and I have what I have because I worked my ass off to get it. I often worked 3 and 4 jobs at a time. It took me 10 years to pay off my college bills. It is wrong to assume I'm looking down on anyone because you don't know what I went through and what sacrifices I made - and it's an insult to suggest that somehow I was entitled or privileged and that everything just fell into my lap. As for "told they are worthless" - who exactly is telling any youth in Anacostia that? If they are being told they are worthless, it's their own community doing that. I certainly am not going around telling them that - they are indeed worth every bit as much as I am - all they need are the skills, they need to stay in school, become literate, learn their math, learn to become reliable and productive and to value each other first. They need to put in the hard work and make the same sacrifices I did.


I'm the PP you're responding to...

did your parents have self-respect OR perhaps they raised you in a crack house and taught you how to fend for yourself by giving you nothing to eat while calling you every terrible name they could think of? Did your parents make you stay outside the house until 7pm every night at age 5 so they could "work?" Did your parents' lessons focus more on how to fight and survive on the streets than how to say your ABCs? Did most of your family members end up in jail or dead?

These are the kids I work with. These are MANY... with very similar backgrounds.

Maybe your parents did verbally and physically abuse you (caused by generations of institutionalized racism) and maybe their efforts to toughen you up with survival skills they deemed necessary helped you "work your ass off" to get to where you are today. If that's the case, then I applaud you.

If you did go through these traumatic psychological experiences and grew up without emotional support to deal with it, then I was not talking to you in my earlier post.

If you grew up with parents that cared enough about you to give you skills that you'd need later in life to be successful, then I can understand how you became successful. That was me too.

This is not primarily about money or race - the tools your parents (or your community) gave you is what you have to work with. The kids I see have little to no successful life tools from which to build on. They were not taught them.

I'm tired of people saying "they're just like me... I was poor too." It's not about being poor. It's about the life experiences you have and lessons learned.


Try "parent" - household with manic depression, alcoholism, jail, and death and moving so much that I never made any bonds. I didn't get a pass and didn't get much to work with.

Part of the problem also is the soft bigotry of low expectations. People say "oh, well... what do you expect from these poor kids, since they've had it so rough growing up" - and so people give up on a lot of things, give them a pass on so many things, and water down expectations. That isn't helping either.
Anonymous
Post 03/03/2014 07:52     Subject: "My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I agree that nobody deserves to be hit but the suggestion that behavioral problems in young boys today are BECAUSE of racism or punishment is totally back-assward.

You want to know why there's a disproportionate number of young black boys being disciplined or ending up behind bars? You wonder why profiling happens? It's because a disproportionate amount of the problems in society are being caused by young black men. That's what the data shows.


So I would say that is prima facie EVIDENCE that there is institutional racism at play. If a group of kids of a particular race are for some reason more prone to problem behavior, I want to know what has happened in the lives of these kids that's caused that. Because if you DON'T believe that there are external factors and pressures that lead to this, the alternative is to believe that for some reason, African American boys and young men are predetermined to be violent. If it is not the institutionalized racist conditions of our society which cause this, then basically you have to believe that black boys are just bad.


You only want to point to a culture of "institutionalized racism" and paint that as the blame, as though somehow rich white folks are secretly going around putting guns to young black men's heads and forcing them to drop out of school, forcing them to go out and rob, forcing them to fight with each other, forcing them to get young girls pregnant and then abandon them, forcing them to do drugs, et cetera. That belief is downright bizarre. Prima Facie evidence? More like a conspiracy theory of the illuminati, bigfoot and UFOs.

Yet you don't want to believe that there exists ghetto culture which teaches young black men that this kind of behavior is what you do, and this lifestyle is normal. That belief is downright obtuse.


I don't think obtuse means what you think it does.


Anyone who doesn't think ghetto culture is patterned, modeled, taught and learned beginning at an early age is obtuse.
obtuse - annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
"he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse"

It's learning that has to be deprogrammed and replaced with something else. Otherwise it's self-defeating and self-limiting and will constantly undermine kids and if the cycle isn't broken, it will continue on for generation after generation. Kids make themselves their own worst enemies when they continue down a path of ghetto culture.
Anonymous
Post 03/03/2014 00:54     Subject: Re:"My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
[quote=Anonymous
So maybe it's not about having something handed to you; I think the PP was off the mark about that. But if you worked your ass off to get where you are, you had to start with a belief that you could get there, and then get some knowledge of how. That's what's missing for a lot of these kids. There's not a lot of long-term thinking when you're just trying to survive today. The will to push past obstacles isn't in everyone (I know some lazy ass, criminally-oriented, unprincipled kids from six-figure families); but those who have it should at least get a shot. Communities and parents already hamstrung by those obstacles can't do it without the help of outside influence that can marshall the resources.


I appreciate your thoughtful post but I'm PP -

I DO think it's about having something handed to you. This person who worked her way out of poverty had someone (parents or other) in her life that gave her life skills that she later used to get out of poverty. This happened to me too.

I see far too many kids who have no real world coping skills. They only have street skills. Street skills will not take you far in life.

My frustration is with posters who project their own circumstances on others and then look down on them for not rising above it. Maybe the hole is a lot deeper for someone else?! To assume, I did it so that entire group of kids over there that are not like me and have very different issues should do it to is totally unrealistic to me.
Anonymous
Post 03/03/2014 00:43     Subject: Re:"My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:


To the people who think that they are somehow superior because they went to a good university, have a good job, and give their children the moon to ensure their success...

most of you have what you have because of your parents and their parents.

It's not your brilliance. It's not that you are more special.

Even if your parents were poor, they likely had self-respect. Even if your grandparents scraped for food, they likely weren't told everyday of their lives that they were worthless.

Stop flattering yourself... and stop looking down on others who came from different circumstances (whether race, class or whatever else).


So very true.


My parents were dirt poor and I have what I have because I worked my ass off to get it. I often worked 3 and 4 jobs at a time. It took me 10 years to pay off my college bills. It is wrong to assume I'm looking down on anyone because you don't know what I went through and what sacrifices I made - and it's an insult to suggest that somehow I was entitled or privileged and that everything just fell into my lap. As for "told they are worthless" - who exactly is telling any youth in Anacostia that? If they are being told they are worthless, it's their own community doing that. I certainly am not going around telling them that - they are indeed worth every bit as much as I am - all they need are the skills, they need to stay in school, become literate, learn their math, learn to become reliable and productive and to value each other first. They need to put in the hard work and make the same sacrifices I did.


I'm the PP you're responding to...

did your parents have self-respect OR perhaps they raised you in a crack house and taught you how to fend for yourself by giving you nothing to eat while calling you every terrible name they could think of? Did your parents make you stay outside the house until 7pm every night at age 5 so they could "work?" Did your parents' lessons focus more on how to fight and survive on the streets than how to say your ABCs? Did most of your family members end up in jail or dead?

These are the kids I work with. These are MANY... with very similar backgrounds.

Maybe your parents did verbally and physically abuse you (caused by generations of institutionalized racism) and maybe their efforts to toughen you up with survival skills they deemed necessary helped you "work your ass off" to get to where you are today. If that's the case, then I applaud you.

If you did go through these traumatic psychological experiences and grew up without emotional support to deal with it, then I was not talking to you in my earlier post.

If you grew up with parents that cared enough about you to give you skills that you'd need later in life to be successful, then I can understand how you became successful. That was me too.

This is not primarily about money or race - the tools your parents (or your community) gave you is what you have to work with. The kids I see have little to no successful life tools from which to build on. They were not taught them.

I'm tired of people saying "they're just like me... I was poor too." It's not about being poor. It's about the life experiences you have and lessons learned.
Anonymous
Post 03/03/2014 00:00     Subject: "My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
Anecdote does not equal data. Because you and a few ithers can succed out of poverty or the inner city does not mean it is realistic for most. In fact it points to how problematuc the situation is that so few due. We are oroud you did but get off your high horse because it won't change the data.
Anonymous
Post 03/02/2014 23:58     Subject: "My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I agree that nobody deserves to be hit but the suggestion that behavioral problems in young boys today are BECAUSE of racism or punishment is totally back-assward.

You want to know why there's a disproportionate number of young black boys being disciplined or ending up behind bars? You wonder why profiling happens? It's because a disproportionate amount of the problems in society are being caused by young black men. That's what the data shows.


So I would say that is prima facie EVIDENCE that there is institutional racism at play. If a group of kids of a particular race are for some reason more prone to problem behavior, I want to know what has happened in the lives of these kids that's caused that. Because if you DON'T believe that there are external factors and pressures that lead to this, the alternative is to believe that for some reason, African American boys and young men are predetermined to be violent. If it is not the institutionalized racist conditions of our society which cause this, then basically you have to believe that black boys are just bad.


You only want to point to a culture of "institutionalized racism" and paint that as the blame, as though somehow rich white folks are secretly going around putting guns to young black men's heads and forcing them to drop out of school, forcing them to go out and rob, forcing them to fight with each other, forcing them to get young girls pregnant and then abandon them, forcing them to do drugs, et cetera. That belief is downright bizarre. Prima Facie evidence? More like a conspiracy theory of the illuminati, bigfoot and UFOs.

Yet you don't want to believe that there exists ghetto culture which teaches young black men that this kind of behavior is what you do, and this lifestyle is normal. That belief is downright obtuse.


I don't think obtuse means what you think it does.
Anonymous
Post 03/02/2014 23:37     Subject: "My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I agree that nobody deserves to be hit but the suggestion that behavioral problems in young boys today are BECAUSE of racism or punishment is totally back-assward.

You want to know why there's a disproportionate number of young black boys being disciplined or ending up behind bars? You wonder why profiling happens? It's because a disproportionate amount of the problems in society are being caused by young black men. That's what the data shows.


So I would say that is prima facie EVIDENCE that there is institutional racism at play. If a group of kids of a particular race are for some reason more prone to problem behavior, I want to know what has happened in the lives of these kids that's caused that. Because if you DON'T believe that there are external factors and pressures that lead to this, the alternative is to believe that for some reason, African American boys and young men are predetermined to be violent. If it is not the institutionalized racist conditions of our society which cause this, then basically you have to believe that black boys are just bad.


You only want to point to a culture of "institutionalized racism" and paint that as the blame, as though somehow rich white folks are secretly going around putting guns to young black men's heads and forcing them to drop out of school, forcing them to go out and rob, forcing them to fight with each other, forcing them to get young girls pregnant and then abandon them, forcing them to do drugs, et cetera. That belief is downright bizarre. Prima Facie evidence? More like a conspiracy theory of the illuminati, bigfoot and UFOs.

Yet you don't want to believe that there exists ghetto culture which teaches young black men that this kind of behavior is what you do, and this lifestyle is normal. That belief is downright obtuse.
Anonymous
Post 03/02/2014 20:35     Subject: Re:"My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
My parents were dirt poor and I have what I have because I worked my ass off to get it. I often worked 3 and 4 jobs at a time. It took me 10 years to pay off my college bills. It is wrong to assume I'm looking down on anyone because you don't know what I went through and what sacrifices I made - and it's an insult to suggest that somehow I was entitled or privileged and that everything just fell into my lap. As for "told they are worthless" - who exactly is telling any youth in Anacostia that? If they are being told they are worthless, it's their own community doing that. I certainly am not going around telling them that - they are indeed worth every bit as much as I am - all they need are the skills, they need to stay in school, become literate, learn their math, learn to become reliable and productive and to value each other first. They need to put in the hard work and make the same sacrifices I did.


I had a stint teaching 3rd graders at a school in a housing project community. And the message that I saw passed on to the kids there wasn't that they were worthless, it was that they shouldn't set their expectations too high. More accurately, that they'd be hurting themselves if they set any expectations at all. The probabilities for girls pointed toward welfare, babies and a lot of time in family court; for boys it was death and incarceration. Circle time was very often filled with stories of gunfire outside bedroom windows, demonstrations of the way one should stand with their hands against the wall when the police raid a home at 3 am, and rumors about what would happen to the guys who killed so-and-so's big brother. The primary thing that everyone in that community had to deal with was fear. Fear of thugs and the police, fear of getting killed, fear of a loved one getting killed or jailed, and most important, fear of being seen as fearful. The fights and brutality happened because the weak got crushed. One girl, who lived with her mom and sister at a homeless shelter, developed an acerbic sense of humor to ward off the ruthless taunts and violence against her; she was very often followed after school and jumped by the other kids for having a smart mouth. These were 8-year-olds. Really angry, stressed out, scared-to-death kids. They're often hungry, too. Those free and reduced meals were practically inedible. Education and getting a paycheck some day? Last thing on their minds. When I asked what they wanted to be when they grew up, all but three said they wanted to be a police officer (girls, too) "because the police can do anything they want."

So maybe it's not about having something handed to you; I think the PP was off the mark about that. But if you worked your ass off to get where you are, you had to start with a belief that you could get there, and then get some knowledge of how. That's what's missing for a lot of these kids. There's not a lot of long-term thinking when you're just trying to survive today. The will to push past obstacles isn't in everyone (I know some lazy ass, criminally-oriented, unprincipled kids from six-figure families); but those who have it should at least get a shot. Communities and parents already hamstrung by those obstacles can't do it without the help of outside influence that can marshall the resources.
Anonymous
Post 03/02/2014 20:12     Subject: "My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
The hitting being done to these boys is from their parents. Hitting is probably a mild word for it - it's done with belts and happens with regularity.
Anonymous
Post 03/02/2014 19:41     Subject: "My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
Inner city culture has aspects that are very damaging and dangerous for youth who are trying to succeed.
Anonymous
Post 03/02/2014 18:52     Subject: "My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
Anonymous wrote:I agree that nobody deserves to be hit but the suggestion that behavioral problems in young boys today are BECAUSE of racism or punishment is totally back-assward.

You want to know why there's a disproportionate number of young black boys being disciplined or ending up behind bars? You wonder why profiling happens? It's because a disproportionate amount of the problems in society are being caused by young black men. That's what the data shows.


So I would say that is prima facie EVIDENCE that there is institutional racism at play. If a group of kids of a particular race are for some reason more prone to problem behavior, I want to know what has happened in the lives of these kids that's caused that. Because if you DON'T believe that there are external factors and pressures that lead to this, the alternative is to believe that for some reason, African American boys and young men are predetermined to be violent. If it is not the institutionalized racist conditions of our society which cause this, then basically you have to believe that black boys are just bad.
Anonymous
Post 03/02/2014 18:52     Subject: "My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm a bit concerned about the "discipline reform" piece. I certainly agree there are better ways that discipline can and should be handled but there are a hundred ways to NOT do it. Certainly there do need to be interventions and probably things like mentoring, counseling and other supports to deal with disruptive behavior and other things, rather than just leaping to suspensions but I am a bit concerned about the evident reluctance to escalate more serious issues. When there are things like violence, threats of violence, property damage or theft - basically anything in the criminal code - those accordingly need to be dealt with in a serious manner.


I don't fundamentally disagree, but the discipline that black boys are subject to in the educational system is, on the aggregate, harsher than other populations of students. Black boys and young men are nine percent of the total school population, but one-quarter of all physical punishments meted out in schools are to black boys and young men.


"Physical punishment?" What is this, 1950, when the principal had a paddle?

As for your statistics, you are assuming the numbers should be commensurate, but studies show that there are significantly greater rates of violence and aggression among at-risk African American youth than among most other youth demographics. It's not as though most of the kids receiving discipline are sitting there sweetly, innocently, quietly and attentively following the teacher's direction to the letter, only to be singled out and sent to the principal for absolutely no reason whatsoever.


Very true. The fact that this program or the need for it is actually being debated is making my head spin!

The REASON black men fill prisons at an alarming rate, have a sky high unemployment rate, have a higher rate of drug/alcohol abuse, are have babies without supporting them, drop out of school at higher rates, etc. stems from a past where they were made to feel inferior, had rights taken away and were subjected to systematic and targeted rules to ensure a bottom feeder position. Come on folks, my parents went to a black only high school and had to use the old middle school books from the white kids who were 4 years younger. Once they graduated, there were no jobs for them (because they were black and not educated as well as white kids). I experienced difficulty in school with parents who did not understand how to help me and had no money to hire tutors. Education was and remains unequal. Black boys are incarcerated far more than any other group for the SAME offenses. There are cases all the time citing the unfairness... no question there. The court system was and remains unequal. Black boys were made to sit in back of buses, use different fountains, were hung... not too long ago folks and the scars are still there. We see the effects of this today.

But here's what REALLY gets me upset...

Instead of saying "Oh my goodness, how could we let this happen to this group of young boys. Most of them can't read at grade level. Most of them drop out of school. Most of them do not have fathers. Most of them have a parent or parents who got little to no education. Most of them are suffering psychologically and have low self esteem. We need to DO SOMETHING."



You question a program to help these kids who have obviously not be given what they need since the cycle repeats.

YET... I recently read a post on DCUM talking about the unfortunate deaths of a few high school kids over the past 4 years. Someone said it was an epidemic and we have to do something!

I do want to help everyone (especially kids) BUT I'm sick of people ACCEPTING that black boys are suppose to drop out of school, kill each other, go to prison FAR MORE than any other group.

And you know what... President Obama said that there are some programs that are WORKING!! That means there's a solution to the problem. Yes, a solution! One that doesn't even require tax payer money. That means that you don't have to pay for it.

So, why did this thread arise that questions this program???

Unbelievable. This is the lowest level I've ever seen DCUM go and it's been pretty low.


The problems you talk about were 50, 60 years ago, our parents generation, and maybe a little bit of our own childhoods. But this is TODAY. Youths today are not having rights taken away from them, they get the same classrooms, books and curriculum as the next kid, but now the problem is that it is they themselves who relegate themselves to inferior status, who don't try, who resort to scams, violence or aggression to try and get their way in life because they lack the skills to do it any other way. It's a part of ingrained, learned culture lingering from prior generations when things were worse - that needs to be dalt with and overcome. Yes, some programs are working - look at the renaissance happening in Harlem. It takes strong, concerted engagement at the community level - people reaching out to people and mentoring them early on in terms of proper parenting, life skills and so on.


Wow, you really are out of touch aren't you? Same classrooms? Really? Same books? Really? Tell me - when was the last time you volunteered at an urban school? Seriously? They don't have the same. Even in DC. My son goes to Deal. It's amazing. I recently volunteered at a school in SE DC. It was not the same. It was sad. The kids had never been across the river. It seems impossible, but it was true. I fear for my black boys every day. Do you fear for your boys? People automatically assume that because of the color of their skin, they will rob them or something. My son wears his pants low and his hat backwards - and yet, he has an A in Latin II Honors. It's tough for all boys, but especially boys of color. Please educate yourself. The stats are there for your viewing.


If your kid goes through life looking like a thug, why are you surprised that people would treat him like a potential thug?
Anonymous
Post 03/02/2014 18:49     Subject: Re:"My Brother's Keeper" and at-risk kids... thoughts?
Anonymous wrote:


To the people who think that they are somehow superior because they went to a good university, have a good job, and give their children the moon to ensure their success...

most of you have what you have because of your parents and their parents.

It's not your brilliance. It's not that you are more special.

Even if your parents were poor, they likely had self-respect. Even if your grandparents scraped for food, they likely weren't told everyday of their lives that they were worthless.

Stop flattering yourself... and stop looking down on others who came from different circumstances (whether race, class or whatever else).


So very true.


My parents were dirt poor and I have what I have because I worked my ass off to get it. I often worked 3 and 4 jobs at a time. It took me 10 years to pay off my college bills. It is wrong to assume I'm looking down on anyone because you don't know what I went through and what sacrifices I made - and it's an insult to suggest that somehow I was entitled or privileged and that everything just fell into my lap. As for "told they are worthless" - who exactly is telling any youth in Anacostia that? If they are being told they are worthless, it's their own community doing that. I certainly am not going around telling them that - they are indeed worth every bit as much as I am - all they need are the skills, they need to stay in school, become literate, learn their math, learn to become reliable and productive and to value each other first. They need to put in the hard work and make the same sacrifices I did.