Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here -- I am sympathetic to both those who feel attacked for gaming the system and those who feel some do game the system. The truth is that those with true needs ought to be supportive of those who want to be sure the gates of extra time are fairly guarded.

Our DC has severe dysgraphia -- types all papers at school but we needed to get DC tested to get an accommodation for College Board to type essays. When formal testing was done, the results left room to argue for extra time along with the typing accommodation -- and the school learning specialist saw no downside in us seeking more time from the College Board. Our DC was adamant that it would be unfair to friends with serious LDs and we are very proud that DC rejected the offer of more time and he ended up doing extremely well without it. But I do believe there are other families that would have jumped at that chance to game the system if they thought it would give their child a slight edge, and therein lies the problem.

Some schools have procedures in place that may discourage abuses, but others may not. At our school, any child who has extra time must take it. In other words, if you have 50% more time you need to stay in the testing room 50% longer than kids without extra time. I suppose that might motivate a child to tell his parents not to push for something he really doesn't need. One problem with the system is that I believe extra time accommodations
come in blocks - 50% more , double, whatever. I don't know if the science/schools yet are zoned on precisely determining what is a "fair" amount of extra time for each specific child. Obviously, the rounded blocks don't really do that.

Some families whose children who don't have extra time question whether it is fair that the College Board is not allowed to report to colleges that a student receives more time. Speed still matters -- it is not the same thing as intelligence, but it is not irrelevant to school performance, and less than memory is relevant. A child who reads more slowly, processes more slowly, writes more slowly, etc. can be capable doing amazingly great work, can outwork other kids with no LDs etc. But certain college environments where kids may be expected to take on a very heavy reading and writing load, for example, brilliant kids with processing issues will probably have trouble succeeding. Good high schools and conscientious parents often look to pick colleges /majors and the kids, ultimately, pick careers sometimes aware of these challenges down the road even in the face of straight As in high school. Good counselors may disclose an LD in a cover letter (only with parent consent at our school). But what bugs some other parents are the kids who game the system, push for boarder line needed extra time and get far more than needed, then make their records seem more competitive without disclosing that they had a better than even playing field. Unfortunately, it probably happens and that is unfair to all the LD kids who work extra hard to overcome their disability.

I would encourage the LD community not to be defensive in the face of those that question the standards of more time, but instead work them to ensure that the system isn't abused which will ultimately hurt children who really need the accommodation.

Indeed! Thank you.

Anonymous wrote:NP here -- I am sympathetic to both those who feel attacked for gaming the system and those who feel some do game the system. The truth is that those with true needs ought to be supportive of those who want to be sure the gates of extra time are fairly guarded.

Our DC has severe dysgraphia -- types all papers at school but we needed to get DC tested to get an accommodation for College Board to type essays. When formal testing was done, the results left room to argue for extra time along with the typing accommodation -- and the school learning specialist saw no downside in us seeking more time from the College Board. Our DC was adamant that it would be unfair to friends with serious LDs and we are very proud that DC rejected the offer of more time and he ended up doing extremely well without it. But I do believe there are other families that would have jumped at that chance to game the system if they thought it would give their child a slight edge, and therein lies the problem.

Some schools have procedures in place that may discourage abuses, but others may not. At our school, any child who has extra time must take it. In other words, if you have 50% more time you need to stay in the testing room 50% longer than kids without extra time. I suppose that might motivate a child to tell his parents not to push for something he really doesn't need. One problem with the system is that I believe extra time accommodations
come in blocks - 50% more , double, whatever. I don't know if the science/schools yet are zoned on precisely determining what is a "fair" amount of extra time for each specific child. Obviously, the rounded blocks don't really do that.

Some families whose children who don't have extra time question whether it is fair that the College Board is not allowed to report to colleges that a student receives more time. Speed still matters -- it is not the same thing as intelligence, but it is not irrelevant to school performance, and less than memory is relevant. A child who reads more slowly, processes more slowly, writes more slowly, etc. can be capable doing amazingly great work, can outwork other kids with no LDs etc. But certain college environments where kids may be expected to take on a very heavy reading and writing load, for example, brilliant kids with processing issues will probably have trouble succeeding. Good high schools and conscientious parents often look to pick colleges /majors and the kids, ultimately, pick careers sometimes aware of these challenges down the road even in the face of straight As in high school. Good counselors may disclose an LD in a cover letter (only with parent consent at our school). But what bugs some other parents are the kids who game the system, push for boarder line needed extra time and get far more than needed, then make their records seem more competitive without disclosing that they had a better than even playing field. Unfortunately, it probably happens and that is unfair to all the LD kids who work extra hard to overcome their disability.

I would encourage the LD community not to be defensive in the face of those that question the standards of more time, but instead work them to ensure that the system isn't abused which will ultimately hurt children who really need the accommodation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Np here. Yes, this is exactly what I think. Especially when the "LD" is uncovered for the first time in a teen's academic career right Newfie the PSAT and other high-stakes tests that win you awards, placement, and college entrance. How was this "LD" really not uncovered before 10th grade?

I have an LD that wasn't uncovered until college. Why? Because I was smart, got As and Bs, got a 30 on the ACT, and was intelligent enough to cope because I was "smart enough" and did "well enough". The academic demands really ratchet up towards the end of high school and beginning of college, and you take more standardized tests. It makes perfect sense when someone who has developed coping skills, and been working at a disadvantage might really fall behind when the demands on you really increase.

I'm sure some people do game the system, but some very intelligent kids do go undetected until 10th grade or even freshman/sophomore year of high school. Especially for executive functioning disorders, non-verbal learning disability, and milder forms of dyslexia that don't completely interfere with being able to perform in school, but just require the student to work harder. For example, someone might have a form of dyslexia that they were able to overcome without intervention, but might take twice as long to read instructions on an exam, and thus have less time to answer the problem/concept that the test is designed to evaluate. Basically, if you are smart enough, you can slip through the cracks. Usually these students are working twice as hard as everyone else until the issue is detected. You can imagine that at schools that have 3-4 hours of homework a night, this can easily turn into 6-7, which is unsustainable.

When my LD was uncovered, it allowed me to pass classes that were not in my strength, and excel subjects I was good at instead of getting Bs/B+s. It is in part about allowing the student to achieve to the highest level THEY can achieve.

As far as the process goes to get evaluated, you have a very intensive testing with a psychologist that takes a long time and have all the appropriate documentation. It's not like you just tell the school "I have an LD"--you have to go through and foreword the medical records, and get all the official paperwork through. It is especially difficult and a pain in the butt as far as documentation to get extended time for standardized tests like the PSAT, SAT, and GRE.

How does this work later in life in the working world with deadlines, time constraints, etc?

It depends on the nature and degree of the disability. For many people, brain development helps as they outgrow some of the issues. Some people stay on stimulant medications for years and rely on those in conjunction with other compensating measures (apps for remembering things, graphic organizers for writing, etc.). Regardless, an LD is an LD and people with LDs need to learn to compensate and address the issues head-on. Ideally they learn to do so during adolescence so that as they go to college and beyond, they have systems and strategies for compensating for their issues.

It is also helpful, in career planning, to have a sufficiently clear picture and understanding of what the issues are and where a person's strengths and challenges lie. A job with a lot of structure and clear expectations and systems for carrying out tasks, for example, would be ideal for my son, who he has a high IQ but below-average processing speed and working memory. He has problems initiating tasks and organizing information and would be a disaster as e.g. a scientist in a lab or a college professor or a solo practice lawyer (which require strong organizational and initiation skills).

ADD and associated executive function problems are rampant in my family (there is a strong genetic component) and I am quite sure my father had it. He had two Ivy League degrees and was extremely smart and personable, but failed miserably as an entrepreneur, going from failed venture to failed venture over decades. One of my siblings is a teacher and he too has had a very spotty time of it, work-wise - his line of work requires more organizational skills than he possesses.

I hope that by being proactive about identifying and helping my son with his issues (similar to those of my father and sibling), I am positioning him to make good judgments about his academic and career choices for the long haul.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Np here. Yes, this is exactly what I think. Especially when the "LD" is uncovered for the first time in a teen's academic career right Newfie the PSAT and other high-stakes tests that win you awards, placement, and college entrance. How was this "LD" really not uncovered before 10th grade?

I have an LD that wasn't uncovered until college. Why? Because I was smart, got As and Bs, got a 30 on the ACT, and was intelligent enough to cope because I was "smart enough" and did "well enough". The academic demands really ratchet up towards the end of high school and beginning of college, and you take more standardized tests. It makes perfect sense when someone who has developed coping skills, and been working at a disadvantage might really fall behind when the demands on you really increase.

I'm sure some people do game the system, but some very intelligent kids do go undetected until 10th grade or even freshman/sophomore year of high school. Especially for executive functioning disorders, non-verbal learning disability, and milder forms of dyslexia that don't completely interfere with being able to perform in school, but just require the student to work harder. For example, someone might have a form of dyslexia that they were able to overcome without intervention, but might take twice as long to read instructions on an exam, and thus have less time to answer the problem/concept that the test is designed to evaluate. Basically, if you are smart enough, you can slip through the cracks. Usually these students are working twice as hard as everyone else until the issue is detected. You can imagine that at schools that have 3-4 hours of homework a night, this can easily turn into 6-7, which is unsustainable.

When my LD was uncovered, it allowed me to pass classes that were not in my strength, and excel subjects I was good at instead of getting Bs/B+s. It is in part about allowing the student to achieve to the highest level THEY can achieve.

As far as the process goes to get evaluated, you have a very intensive testing with a psychologist that takes a long time and have all the appropriate documentation. It's not like you just tell the school "I have an LD"--you have to go through and foreword the medical records, and get all the official paperwork through. It is especially difficult and a pain in the butt as far as documentation to get extended time for standardized tests like the PSAT, SAT, and GRE.

How does this work later in life in the working world with deadlines, time constraints, etc?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Np here. Yes, this is exactly what I think. Especially when the "LD" is uncovered for the first time in a teen's academic career right Newfie the PSAT and other high-stakes tests that win you awards, placement, and college entrance. How was this "LD" really not uncovered before 10th grade?

I have an LD that wasn't uncovered until college. Why? Because I was smart, got As and Bs, got a 30 on the ACT, and was intelligent enough to cope because I was "smart enough" and did "well enough". The academic demands really ratchet up towards the end of high school and beginning of college, and you take more standardized tests. It makes perfect sense when someone who has developed coping skills, and been working at a disadvantage might really fall behind when the demands on you really increase.

I'm sure some people do game the system, but some very intelligent kids do go undetected until 10th grade or even freshman/sophomore year of high school. Especially for executive functioning disorders, non-verbal learning disability, and milder forms of dyslexia that don't completely interfere with being able to perform in school, but just require the student to work harder. For example, someone might have a form of dyslexia that they were able to overcome without intervention, but might take twice as long to read instructions on an exam, and thus have less time to answer the problem/concept that the test is designed to evaluate. Basically, if you are smart enough, you can slip through the cracks. Usually these students are working twice as hard as everyone else until the issue is detected. You can imagine that at schools that have 3-4 hours of homework a night, this can easily turn into 6-7, which is unsustainable.

When my LD was uncovered, it allowed me to pass classes that were not in my strength, and excel subjects I was good at instead of getting Bs/B+s. It is in part about allowing the student to achieve to the highest level THEY can achieve.

As far as the process goes to get evaluated, you have a very intensive testing with a psychologist that takes a long time and have all the appropriate documentation. It's not like you just tell the school "I have an LD"--you have to go through and foreword the medical records, and get all the official paperwork through. It is especially difficult and a pain in the butt as far as documentation to get extended time for standardized tests like the PSAT, SAT, and GRE.

How does this work later in life in the working world with deadlines, time constraints, etc?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You realize that students with LDs or ADHD can be very smart, right?

Sure. I'm questioning the need for extra time in some cases.

Well stop questioning. Are you seriously jealous that someone's kid has an LD? Do you seriously think people are gaming the system, pretending to be LD? You may as well complain about handicapped parking preference while you are at it. Not sure if all parents of LD kids are the same as I am, but I can tell you I would trade anything to not have my kid suffer the way he does. The unbelievable amount of time and emotional support it takes from everyone in the family, plus the incredible expense and time of professional support...it is all so draining and it is a huge part of our lives every day. So, please, please get over yourself and be grateful that your DC is healthy.

Np here. Yes, this is exactly what I think. Especially when the "LD" is uncovered for the first time in a teen's academic career right Newfie the PSAT and other high-stakes tests that win you awards, placement, and college entrance. How was this "LD" really not uncovered before 10th grade?

Anonymous wrote:

Np here. Yes, this is exactly what I think. Especially when the "LD" is uncovered for the first time in a teen's academic career right Newfie the PSAT and other high-stakes tests that win you awards, placement, and college entrance. How was this "LD" really not uncovered before 10th grade?

I have an LD that wasn't uncovered until college. Why? Because I was smart, got As and Bs, got a 30 on the ACT, and was intelligent enough to cope because I was "smart enough" and did "well enough". The academic demands really ratchet up towards the end of high school and beginning of college, and you take more standardized tests. It makes perfect sense when someone who has developed coping skills, and been working at a disadvantage might really fall behind when the demands on you really increase.

I'm sure some people do game the system, but some very intelligent kids do go undetected until 10th grade or even freshman/sophomore year of high school. Especially for executive functioning disorders, non-verbal learning disability, and milder forms of dyslexia that don't completely interfere with being able to perform in school, but just require the student to work harder. For example, someone might have a form of dyslexia that they were able to overcome without intervention, but might take twice as long to read instructions on an exam, and thus have less time to answer the problem/concept that the test is designed to evaluate. Basically, if you are smart enough, you can slip through the cracks. Usually these students are working twice as hard as everyone else until the issue is detected. You can imagine that at schools that have 3-4 hours of homework a night, this can easily turn into 6-7, which is unsustainable.

When my LD was uncovered, it allowed me to pass classes that were not in my strength, and excel subjects I was good at instead of getting Bs/B+s. It is in part about allowing the student to achieve to the highest level THEY can achieve.

As far as the process goes to get evaluated, you have a very intensive testing with a psychologist that takes a long time and have all the appropriate documentation. It's not like you just tell the school "I have an LD"--you have to go through and foreword the medical records, and get all the official paperwork through. It is especially difficult and a pain in the butt as far as documentation to get extended time for standardized tests like the PSAT, SAT, and GRE.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I imagine different schools vary in their approach to accommodations. Schools should, IMO, have a clear policy about accommodations and should provide them only in the case of a documented disability.

In general, a specific learning disability such as dyslexia or dysgraphia makes it very difficult for a child to perform at his or her intellectual potential without accommodations and remediation. An LD can only be diagnosed by a licensed psychologist, preferably as part of an in-depth evaluation. The results of such assessments are fully quantifiable and can guide remediation and accommodations. This is the kind of documented learning disability that can require accommodations to level the playing field. Do you really object to that? I guarantee you, a kid with dyslexia has plenty of barriers to overcome.

I suspect you are talking about ADHD, which is a different animal. I have no experience with that so I won't weigh in on it.

Okay, agreed. But what if all the extra-time assessment and permission requires is an in-school visit to a learning specialist, backed by a teacher's suggestion that there may be a problem, and a student's statement that they are having problems completing their exams successfully in the allotted time? I would prefer that these assessments be performed and "diagnosed by a licensed psychologist, preferably as part of an in-depth evaluation. The results of such assessments are fully quantifiable and can guide remediation and accommodations. This is the kind of documented learning disability that can require accommodations to level the playing field." If they are given out more liberally, then the true LD children will again find themselves at a testing disadvantage.

Anonymous wrote:Why not question it?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You realize that students with LDs or ADHD can be very smart, right?

Sure. I'm questioning the need for extra time in some cases.

It's not your job to question it, and frankly, it's none of your business.

Anonymous wrote:I was a very slow test taker in high school, college, and graduate school who frequently did not have quite enough time to finish an exam -- and would therefore earn an A-/B+, instead of an A.

My child is a straight A student (only two A-s) at their top private high school. In one of the classes where my child earned an A-, s/he was having trouble with the exams, and the teacher suggested that they visit the learning coordinator to get approved for additional time on the exams.

Apparently, it must be easier than most people think to get approved for the extra time on exams, if a teacher at a top private school was making this recommendation to an otherwise A student who was in "danger" of falling into an A- grade.

We did not allow our child to pursue that option, but I can see where the OP might be worried that it is not simply being reserved for standard LDs anymore.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I imagine different schools vary in their approach to accommodations. Schools should, IMO, have a clear policy about accommodations and should provide them only in the case of a documented disability.

In general, a specific learning disability such as dyslexia or dysgraphia makes it very difficult for a child to perform at his or her intellectual potential without accommodations and remediation. An LD can only be diagnosed by a licensed psychologist, preferably as part of an in-depth evaluation. The results of such assessments are fully quantifiable and can guide remediation and accommodations. This is the kind of documented learning disability that can require accommodations to level the playing field. Do you really object to that? I guarantee you, a kid with dyslexia has plenty of barriers to overcome.

I suspect you are talking about ADHD, which is a different animal. I have no experience with that so I won't weigh in on it.

Okay, agreed. But what if all the extra-time assessment and permission requires is an in-school visit to a learning specialist, backed by a teacher's suggestion that there may be a problem, and a student's statement that they are having problems completing their exams successfully in the allotted time? I would prefer that these assessments be performed and "diagnosed by a licensed psychologist, preferably as part of an in-depth evaluation. The results of such assessments are fully quantifiable and can guide remediation and accommodations. This is the kind of documented learning disability that can require accommodations to level the playing field." If they are given out more liberally, then the true LD children will again find themselves at a testing disadvantage.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I imagine different schools vary in their approach to accommodations. Schools should, IMO, have a clear policy about accommodations and should provide them only in the case of a documented disability.

In general, a specific learning disability such as dyslexia or dysgraphia makes it very difficult for a child to perform at his or her intellectual potential without accommodations and remediation. An LD can only be diagnosed by a licensed psychologist, preferably as part of an in-depth evaluation. The results of such assessments are fully quantifiable and can guide remediation and accommodations. This is the kind of documented learning disability that can require accommodations to level the playing field. Do you really object to that? I guarantee you, a kid with dyslexia has plenty of barriers to overcome.

I suspect you are talking about ADHD, which is a different animal. I have no experience with that so I won't weigh in on it.

Okay, agreed. But what if all the extra-time assessment and permission requires is an in-school visit to a learning specialist, backed by a teacher's suggestion that there may be a problem, and a student's statement that they are having problems completing their exams successfully in the allotted time? I would prefer that these assessments be performed and "diagnosed by a licensed psychologist, preferably as part of an in-depth evaluation. The results of such assessments are fully quantifiable and can guide remediation and accommodations. This is the kind of documented learning disability that can require accommodations to level the playing field." If they are given out more liberally, then the true LD children will again find themselves at a testing disadvantage.