Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, we can't force people to vaccinate, but we can call the ones who don't based on fake silence out for the ignorant fucktards that they are.

See, I think people who have such over the top, weird reactions like you are actually scared that they could be wrong about vaccines.

I don't vax for certain illnesses because I didn't think the vaccines are warranted. If another person choose to vax for those illnesses, their choice. I don't think they are idiots or uneducated. In fact, I am not really concerned about their choice at all.

I usually think self-righteous overreactions about others' parenting decisions are insecurity about the person's own decision, but in the case of vaccines and car seat guidelines (rear facing till age two etc.) I'm not sure where it comes from. Maybe the glee of hitting on an irrefutable right decision that they can follow?

In any case, there will be research in the future that connects our vaccines to autoimmune diseases etc., though I doubt they will remember their own attacks since the science will emerge slowly and so gradually change mindsets and vax ingredients and official recommendations.

BTW, I do vax just not for everything (ie no chickenpox).

You have the power to predict future research? Wow! But clearly not to understand today's science, natch. What a power.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, we can't force people to vaccinate, but we can call the ones who don't based on fake silence out for the ignorant fucktards that they are.

See, I think people who have such over the top, weird reactions like you are actually scared that they could be wrong about vaccines.

I don't vax for certain illnesses because I didn't think the vaccines are warranted. If another person choose to vax for those illnesses, their choice. I don't think they are idiots or uneducated. In fact, I am not really concerned about their choice at all.

Mo, I'm not scared that I'm wrong, because I believe in science, see, and I understand how they work. I worry that you idiots out as all, including my children, at risk because THAT IS HOW THE SCIENCE WORKS.

Pp here. .. meant it is different than say measles, in which outbreaks DO occur more frequently in unvaccinated communities

There are two strains of pertussis. From what I've read, the incidence of whooping cough is not related under vaccination. It is a separate problem. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20200027/

Anonymous wrote:See:

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-antivaccination-movement-20140120,0,5576371.story#axzz2rFlecsTK

In my own view, any parent that refuses to vax or go by an alternative schedule than what empirical scientific research recommends, deserves to have their children removed from their custody and be declared unfit.

I am not at all anti-vax but what you said sounds like something out of the 19th century and scares me that there are people like you out there. These anti-vax parents did not vaccinate because of their love and concern for their children. not saying it was well placed but who are we (YOU) to be judge and jury and take their parental rights away?!

These recent results/findings are all anecdotal, so keep that in mind. These parents were operating on the information that was out there regarding the safety of vaccines at the time....what if they had been right?? would YOU then think its fair to be considered an unfit parent and deserve to have your children taken from you because you did vaccinate?

I used to be friends with someone who was not anti-vax until her first born came along. born completely normal and thriving. this all changed immediately after her first set of vaccinations. she died at the age of 5 and the parents could only point to the vaccinations. When child #2 came along damn straight they didn't vaccinate. No one knows why her first born's health was a disaster after her vaccinations - coincidence? maybe. but if you were in my friend's shoes and operating on that knowledge you too may have decided to not vaccinate subsequent children. SO don't judge until you walk in her shoes or the shoes of someone else who's child has died or is so disabled that they have no real "normal" life.

Anonymous wrote:They changed the formulation of the DTaP vaccine a while back, and it now includes acellular pertussis (that's why older versions were just DTP). DTaP is not as effective as the DTP was, but causes fewer kids to have seizures. That's why we're seeing more cases of whooping cough. It has nothing to do with anti-vaxers.

This is also correct.

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately, we don't HAVE herd immunity from Pertussis -- and it is primarily due to adults with waning immunity, moreso than anti-vaxers. Both are problems.

Yep, this. The vast majority of school-aged children in the US ARE appropriately vaccinated. (I can't speak to the problem of measles anti-vaxers in Britain.) It's the adults in our community who have waning immunity and are likely to be spreading disease, and it's actually a recognized unintended effect of mass vaccination.

Vaccination confers a lower level of immunity than actual disease does. So people who have been immunized against, say, whooping cough, have *some* immunity against the disease, usually enough to prevent infection (but not always). Someone who acquires immunity by having the disease itself has a much higher level of immunity, almost always enough to prevent re-infection....at least in the medium term.

Over the long term, all immunity, no matter how acquired, declines unless the immune system receives regular "boosters." (That's why no one is likely to be immune to smallpox, even if you are old enough to have been immunized.) One way to get an immune boost is to be exposed regularly to the disease. So, if after having whooping cough or being immunized against it, you are regularly exposed to the pertussis virus, your immune system is "boosted" and you remain protected. Alternatively, you can be immunized against whooping cough (or re-immunized), and this gives you a boost. (Thus the term "booster shot.")

Now, let's say you get immunized against whooping cough, so have a lower level of immunity against the disease to begin with, and then you live in an environment where pertussis virus is rarely circulating naturally. Your immune system doesn't get any natural boost, and your immunity to whooping cough begins to decline. Unless you get a booster shot, your immunity can decline to a level that isn't protective. What happens when pertussis is introduced into the environment? You catch whooping cough.

What we have are large numbers of adults with declining immunity to diseases they were immunized against in childhood. Many of them (most?) don't get boosters. So when pertussis circulates, they get sick. Only whooping cough in adults often isn't serious and frequently lacks the hallmark "whoop," so many people don't even realize they have whooping cough. We only recognize the problem when small children--some immunized but lacking good immunity, some not immunized--get sick.

We like to blame the anti-vaxers, but the truth is many of us vaccine supporters are at fault. When's the last time YOU had a booster shot?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, we can't force people to vaccinate, but we can call the ones who don't based on fake silence out for the ignorant fucktards that they are.

See, I think people who have such over the top, weird reactions like you are actually scared that they could be wrong about vaccines.

I don't vax for certain illnesses because I didn't think the vaccines are warranted. If another person choose to vax for those illnesses, their choice. I don't think they are idiots or uneducated. In fact, I am not really concerned about their choice at all.

I usually think self-righteous overreactions about others' parenting decisions are insecurity about the person's own decision, but in the case of vaccines and car seat guidelines (rear facing till age two etc.) I'm not sure where it comes from. Maybe the glee of hitting on an irrefutable right decision that they can follow?

In any case, there will be research in the future that connects our vaccines to autoimmune diseases etc., though I doubt they will remember their own attacks since the science will emerge slowly and so gradually change mindsets and vax ingredients and official recommendations.

BTW, I do vax just not for everything (ie no chickenpox).

Anonymous wrote:No, we can't force people to vaccinate, but we can call the ones who don't based on fake silence out for the ignorant fucktards that they are.

See, I think people who have such over the top, weird reactions like you are actually scared that they could be wrong about vaccines.

I don't vax for certain illnesses because I didn't think the vaccines are warranted. If another person choose to vax for those illnesses, their choice. I don't think they are idiots or uneducated. In fact, I am not really concerned about their choice at all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I question the whooping cough thing. My son got this last year and he had been vaccinated for it. I also know of two other families in the area who got it and their kids were vaccinated too. The ER doc at Fairfax said they were seeing this more.

Just saying… I wonder whether the increase in whooping cough is actually due to kids not being vaccinated. Not the case for my son.

Your son probably caught it from someone who hadn't been vaccinated or the person who gave it to him caught it from someone who hadn't been vaccinated.

No you idiot, the PP's point was that her son had been vaccinated yet he still came down with whooping cough. She is questioning why if her child was vaccinated he could then get the illness.

Answer - it happens. Millions of people get the vaccines, there will always be some percent for which the vaccine doesn't work, the vaccine was ineffective lot, etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:See:

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-antivaccination-movement-20140120,0,5576371.story#axzz2rFlecsTK

In my own view, any parent that refuses to vax or go by an alternative schedule than what empirical scientific research recommends, deserves to have their children removed from their custody and be declared unfit.

How do we know that these outbreaks are due to antivax-ers? Could there be something else contributing?

Such as ... ? These are diseases for which there are vaccines. Presumably, if everyone got a vaccine, the disease would be eradicated. There hasn't been a mention of these specific illnesses mutating, so the vaccines don't work anymore. What do you think is the cause??

You would be wrong.

Anonymous wrote:I question the whooping cough thing. My son got this last year and he had been vaccinated for it. I also know of two other families in the area who got it and their kids were vaccinated too. The ER doc at Fairfax said they were seeing this more.

Just saying… I wonder whether the increase in whooping cough is actually due to kids not being vaccinated. Not the case for my son.

Your son probably caught it from someone who hadn't been vaccinated or the person who gave it to him caught it from someone who hadn't been vaccinated.

They changed the formulation of the DTaP vaccine a while back, and it now includes acellular pertussis (that's why older versions were just DTP). DTaP is not as effective as the DTP was, but causes fewer kids to have seizures. That's why we're seeing more cases of whooping cough. It has nothing to do with anti-vaxers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:See:

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-antivaccination-movement-20140120,0,5576371.story#axzz2rFlecsTK

In my own view, any parent that refuses to vax or go by an alternative schedule than what empirical scientific research recommends, deserves to have their children removed from their custody and be declared unfit.

How do we know that these outbreaks are due to antivax-ers? Could there be something else contributing?

Such as ... ? These are diseases for which there are vaccines. Presumably, if everyone got a vaccine, the disease would be eradicated. There hasn't been a mention of these specific illnesses mutating, so the vaccines don't work anymore. What do you think is the cause??

Anonymous wrote:See:

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-antivaccination-movement-20140120,0,5576371.story#axzz2rFlecsTK

In my own view, any parent that refuses to vax or go by an alternative schedule than what empirical scientific research recommends, deserves to have their children removed from their custody and be declared unfit.

How do we know that these outbreaks are due to antivax-ers? Could there be something else contributing?