Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 23:54     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Here's a quick summary of the book, "Blessings of A B-Minus". Seems on point to the discussion, regardless of religion:

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/12/the-blessings-of-a-b-minus/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 23:45     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I am Asian. I will make sure that my kids are successful and would have learned time management and work ethics by the time they leave my house.

Some kids will learn these earlier than others, and I will be there each step of the way to help, guide and support them in every way that I can. However, after senior year - regardless of their intrinsic motivation and personality - they will be launched successfully.



OP again. I am not Asian born but do have many Asian friends. I actually am of Western European descent. I thought I would throw that it in since my methods are probably considered Eastern.


LOL. No, I don't consider it Eastern. I consider it very old school type of parenting. You do due diligence as a parent with some tough love thrown in. You try and figure out what each child needs and you give them that support and discipline.

I feel that I have a larger responsibility in raising my kid, than any other entity. I do not feel that that is the role of the school system or the teachers. I see the school as as the workplace and the teacher as the boss. My kids job is to do well at their work. I tell them that if they are successful, I am the one person who gains nothing, but am the happiest and proudest of their achievements. I also tell them that I will not be there for the rest of their lives - so the values I can teach them while they are under my care should be solid enough to last them a lifetime. My job is to watch them carefully, understand the weakness in their personality, work habits etc, and work hard with them to fix it.

If I need to yell - then I will yell. If I need to wake up at 4:00 am to make coffee for them and wake them up to study, I will do that. It is not always easy, but my life for these few years revolves around their needs. Being a parent is not easy.


OP again....I give my kids the same lecture about how their job is to do well in school. My husband and I work full time and I've told both kids that our job to ensure that we are able to pay the mortgage, private school, food, clothing, activities etc so that they may have a much better life than we did growing up. I've never used the teacher is the boss analogy but I do equate the tests to their "performance" reviews. When my DD gets a really bad grade, I tell her that if I continually performed like that at work that I would lose my job. I also tell my kids that I can't support them forever but I will give them the tools so they will be successful. I love your words though very sweet.


Alas, I don't think we could ever be friends. I hate that phrase (job to do well in school). Really hate it. And the performance review thing - oh boy are you in for it. What will you do if your child works hard and still does poorly on something? Doing well in elementary and doing well later are different things. Either you focus on inputs and study skills, or your teenage years will be rough, particularly if there is a younger kid in the house to whom this stuff comes easier.

Signed, mother of an extremely bright but underachieving lovely 14 year old who I don't want to hate me.


I totally agree we would never be friends IRL and that is fine with me. I'm sure you know people like me and you who look down on them. I'm okay with that, I really am not looking for your approval as our approaches to parenting are completely at odds. The fact that you make excuses for your son is like nails on chalkboard to me. He's smart and doesn't apply himself but it's okay because school isn't real life anyway. I hate that argument. Yes there are successful people who didn't do well in school but one thing they have in common is they work hard. Also, nothing closes doors faster than a lack of a good education.
I think it is the most sad part of American culture these days that so many people make excuses for their children and don't hold them accountable. The most common excuse I hear is about my very smart underachieving child often with ADD or ADHD. I also think you are in for a very hard road if you worry about what your child thinks about you today. You've got to be the parent and that means sometimes your child won't like you.


Not the PP above, but the point is not whether the child likes you or whether they will perform or achieve well because you're pushing/forcing them to while they're in your house. With enough force, you can get nearly every kid to comply eventually in the short terms.

The point is how to help your kid find INSIDE HIMSELF what he needs to motivate himself as a college student, a young adult, and ultimately as a life-long habit. If you are always the one doing the pushing and prodding, the threatening and punishing, the cajoling and manipulating, the approving and disapproving, you are depriving your child of the opportunity to find his OWN motivation. It's not just motivation to achieve great results, by the way. It's also motivation to be curious (learning and growth for its own sake), to take smart risks (push himself further even though he's not sure he can succeed), and to explore and innovate based on his own unique strengths (some of which you don't personally share and therefore may not be able to fully see.)

Again, I'm not saying this is about being your child's friend. But it's also not just about holding your child accountable to you. It's about them figuring out that they're accountable to THEMSELVES. Long term, that's a far more powerful (and healthy) motivator than a parent's approval. But if your voice is always the loudest, they'll never learn to recognize and listen to their own.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 23:33     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
19:45

I had a conversation with the valedictorian of my high school recently. She commented to me how she had wished her parents had provided better guidance. She went to a top 50 school but graduated with a major that wasn't very marketable just like I did. She is now a stay at home mom as she didn't make enough to justify continuing to work. After I finished college, I was able to obtain an entry job with a very good company since I graduated from a school that heavily recruited from my top 50 school. I also earned another degree in a useful field while I worked full time.

My advice to my daughter will be to get a degree in a technical field as you can always move to a nontechnical field but it is much harder to go the other way around. It is about giving my DD choices.

I understand your mom made bad decisions. I'm guessing her help was suffocating.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 23:10     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Oh, and I don't know if you were talking to me or not: I have nothing to say about your parenting style or the place of you in your kid's heart. There are many ways to do things right. Generally yelling (i.e. OP's lament) is not on that list.

I still think, though, if you focus on outcomes and not inputs you risk turning your child into a performer. Something tells me you are not.


Not focusing on outcomes? Or not focusing on inputs?

As a parent you need to do both. My kids excel in academics and extra-curricular activities - I will not say that they are "extremely bright" or "genius". That is for others to determine and judge. And if a genius is someone who excels without any effort - then I think we should also believe in purple unicorns.

And different kids respond to different things. Some need a gentle reminder, a string tied around their finger, or yelling. As long as the "yelling" is not the only input (and it seems that OP is talking to her kids about things as well) - then I do not really see the problem.



I focus on inputs: studying, organization etc. If he prepares for a test, and does poorly, we work on the material he doesn't know but there's no parental yelling, scorn or loss of screen time (or whatever). If he doesn't do the studying (i.e. doesn't write the test down in his planner and then has more to do that last night than he can possibly finish...) then I crack down -- and I don't wait for the results to come back before cracking down. Yes, I care about outputs because repeatedly doing poorly is a sign material isn't learned. That's a problem, for sure, but one fixed by working on the material. It is not a failure on my son's part to do his part.



Asian mom -OP here I like you so much. I am friends with people like you IRL and these friends' children are very successful and well grounded. I try to listen as much as possible to advice like yours. I probably need to help my DD with her organizational skills- however that is something that I have always struggled with myself so it is a struggle. I'm also more reactive ( a bad thing) in dealing with bad grades. If my DD doesn't study for a test but earns in the high 90's, I will let it slide. I know there are times when I thought she really goofed off didn't study well at all and received 100 percent on a test. My reactive approach has been to just monitor her grades at a high level. I generally don't help her study unless she asks except math. Math is her weakest subject so we supplement at home plus she has math tutoring. We also go over all tests together to identify mistakes she made.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 22:38     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I am Asian. I will make sure that my kids are successful and would have learned time management and work ethics by the time they leave my house.

Some kids will learn these earlier than others, and I will be there each step of the way to help, guide and support them in every way that I can. However, after senior year - regardless of their intrinsic motivation and personality - they will be launched successfully.



OP again. I am not Asian born but do have many Asian friends. I actually am of Western European descent. I thought I would throw that it in since my methods are probably considered Eastern.


LOL. No, I don't consider it Eastern. I consider it very old school type of parenting. You do due diligence as a parent with some tough love thrown in. You try and figure out what each child needs and you give them that support and discipline.

I feel that I have a larger responsibility in raising my kid, than any other entity. I do not feel that that is the role of the school system or the teachers. I see the school as as the workplace and the teacher as the boss. My kids job is to do well at their work. I tell them that if they are successful, I am the one person who gains nothing, but am the happiest and proudest of their achievements. I also tell them that I will not be there for the rest of their lives - so the values I can teach them while they are under my care should be solid enough to last them a lifetime. My job is to watch them carefully, understand the weakness in their personality, work habits etc, and work hard with them to fix it.

If I need to yell - then I will yell. If I need to wake up at 4:00 am to make coffee for them and wake them up to study, I will do that. It is not always easy, but my life for these few years revolves around their needs. Being a parent is not easy.


OP again....I give my kids the same lecture about how their job is to do well in school. My husband and I work full time and I've told both kids that our job to ensure that we are able to pay the mortgage, private school, food, clothing, activities etc so that they may have a much better life than we did growing up. I've never used the teacher is the boss analogy but I do equate the tests to their "performance" reviews. When my DD gets a really bad grade, I tell her that if I continually performed like that at work that I would lose my job. I also tell my kids that I can't support them forever but I will give them the tools so they will be successful. I love your words though very sweet.


Alas, I don't think we could ever be friends. I hate that phrase (job to do well in school). Really hate it. And the performance review thing - oh boy are you in for it. What will you do if your child works hard and still does poorly on something? Doing well in elementary and doing well later are different things. Either you focus on inputs and study skills, or your teenage years will be rough, particularly if there is a younger kid in the house to whom this stuff comes easier.

Signed, mother of an extremely bright but underachieving lovely 14 year old who I don't want to hate me.


I totally agree we would never be friends IRL and that is fine with me. I'm sure you know people like me and you who look down on them. I'm okay with that, I really am not looking for your approval as our approaches to parenting are completely at odds. The fact that you make excuses for your son is like nails on chalkboard to me. He's smart and doesn't apply himself but it's okay because school isn't real life anyway. I hate that argument. Yes there are successful people who didn't do well in school but one thing they have in common is they work hard. Also, nothing closes doors faster than a lack of a good education.
I think it is the most sad part of American culture these days that so many people make excuses for their children and don't hold them accountable. The most common excuse I hear is about my very smart underachieving child often with ADD or ADHD. I also think you are in for a very hard road if you worry about what your child thinks about you today. You've got to be the parent and that means sometimes your child won't like you.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 20:30     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Oh, and I don't know if you were talking to me or not: I have nothing to say about your parenting style or the place of you in your kid's heart. There are many ways to do things right. Generally yelling (i.e. OP's lament) is not on that list.

I still think, though, if you focus on outcomes and not inputs you risk turning your child into a performer. Something tells me you are not.


Not focusing on outcomes? Or not focusing on inputs?

As a parent you need to do both. My kids excel in academics and extra-curricular activities - I will not say that they are "extremely bright" or "genius". That is for others to determine and judge. And if a genius is someone who excels without any effort - then I think we should also believe in purple unicorns.

And different kids respond to different things. Some need a gentle reminder, a string tied around their finger, or yelling. As long as the "yelling" is not the only input (and it seems that OP is talking to her kids about things as well) - then I do not really see the problem.



I focus on inputs: studying, organization etc. If he prepares for a test, and does poorly, we work on the material he doesn't know but there's no parental yelling, scorn or loss of screen time (or whatever). If he doesn't do the studying (i.e. doesn't write the test down in his planner and then has more to do that last night than he can possibly finish...) then I crack down -- and I don't wait for the results to come back before cracking down. Yes, I care about outputs because repeatedly doing poorly is a sign material isn't learned. That's a problem, for sure, but one fixed by working on the material. It is not a failure on my son's part to do his part.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 19:45     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP, you really don't seem to understand the difference between INTERNAL and EXTERNAL motivation. If you did, you would be making very different choices in your relationship with your DD.

Please slow down and think about what you're doing.

Your behavior is teaching your daughter that there are two reasons to study and work hard in school:

(1) To please you (or to avoid you yelling at her); and

(2) To keep her privileges (or not lose them to your punishment.)

Nothing in there focuses on how i feels TO HER to succeed or fail in school, or how it feels TO HER to work hard and enjoy the good results (learning something new, getting a good grade, discovering a new strength).

Do you see the difference???

So far, you've directly taught her to work hard in order to get (or not lose) something from someone else. Specifically, from YOU.

My mother did the same thing and yes, it worked in the short term. As a child and teenager, I got excellent grades in order to avoid her yelling at or grounding me. As I got a little older, I also developed a deep resentment of her for trying to control my choices and for crowding out my ability to figure things out on my own. It was terrible my for our relationship. We were never close growing up (though I always put on a fake happy face in order keep her off my back), and we're certainly not close now that I'm an adult.

You seem to care about credentials, so here are mine: I skipped a grade as a child, and I went to an Ivy League college. I struggled tremendously my first few years there. My mother had been so heavy-handed about the external motivators that I had never learned what it felt like to be internally motivated. Ultimately I figured things out, but there was a TREMENDOUS cost to me in my 20s and 30s, not to mention it destroyed my relationship with my mother. (Who wants to be close to someone who yells at them?)

My advice: BACK OFF NOW!! Your DD is ten, which is the perfect age for her to start experiences the natural consequences of her choices. If she doesn't put the work in, she will get a lower grade. Let her figure out what she thinks about that and what she might want to do differently next time.

In the meantime, continue to hold "high standards" by telling her what you know she's capable of achieving when she puts in the hard work. But let her experiment with making some choices. Ten is the perfect age to grant her a little more autonomy.

Finally, you said in an earlier post that you think she works hard in order to "not disappoint you" or something like that. My guess is she doesn't give a crap about disappointing you. She just wants you to stop yelling at her and start giving her her stuff back. Basically, she does what you say to get you off her back. (Again, that's EXTERNAL motivation.)
If you want to read more on this subject, I highly recommend starting with Carol Dweck's work (she's a Stanford professor, in case you care), as well as with Self-Determination theory (University of Rochester.)

Here's a good intro article to get you started on the Self-Determination Theory of Motivation: http://www.education.com/reference/article/self-determination-theory-of-motivation/


Thanks PP for your heartfelt response. When you first responded, I didn't realize how much this issue really hits home with you. I'm really sorry that your mom's parenting style had such a negative impact on your relationship. I definitely don't want my daughter to have such a negative opinion of her childhood. Curious did your mom talk to you as a child about being internally motivated? I do talk with my daughter lot about internal motivation but she still doesn't get it- though I think she is getting better. I'll definitely check out the book from the library next time we go.

BTW- I don't take things away after every bad grade (everyone has a bad day) but if I start to see a pattern that is when I get ready upset. I wouldn't want my DD to skip a grade either. 18 years really isn't that much time either.

FWIW- My parents had the completely opposite philosophy. It was sink or swim and they weren't going to help me either way. Given the people that they were, I'm glad that I didn't receive their lousy guidance but if I had more support as a child from more highly educated parents, I would have done better. I'm sure that everyone has a complaint though about how they were raised.

I don't think an Ivy is the answer for every child either. I want my DD to be successful. If I had my druthers she would earn a hard science degree but if she chooses liberal arts, I'm okay with that as long as she does her best and she has a long term plan. I think a degree from Podunk U (very specialized in demand field) could be worth more than a degree from Harvard (i.e. Women's Studies). I'm also not sending her to a private school for status either. My DD is a very sweet slightly socially awkward kid who loves her private school and her equally slightly socially awkward friends. We have specific reasons for sending the kids there but I don't want to get into it on this forum. I will say they love their schools.


I'm the PP you responded to, and I do hope at least some of what I shared will end up being helpful to you and your DD. It sounds like your heart is in the right place, as is true with all (most?) parents. Even so, I think sometimes the disconnects or errors come from over-compensating for our parents' mistakes, or not thinking carefully enough about the impact we're having on our kids. Even good intentions can cause terrible pain when executed improperly.

On that note, I would encourage you to go back and read your reply above. There's a lot in there about YOU and YOUR very specific preferences for your DD's future once she leaves your home. Sure, you express some limited tolerances for deviations from your vision, but it all seems overly prescribed IMHO. Even your talking with DD about internal motivation is just that - YOU trying to spoon feed it to her and the message not getting through. Again, this is not the way internal motivation works. By definition, it is something someone discovers on their own for their own satisfaction, not because someone else kept talking with them about how important it is.

Of course, I'm not saying it's wrong to have high expectations and lofty hopes and dreams for your child. But I am encouraging you to reframe it into something much less specific - more that she discovers academic (and ultimately professional) pursuits that SHE loves and that allow HER to be happy and thrive, whatever that looks like. Let go of your "druthers" for hard sciences and your Plan B tolerance for a "specialized field". Allow her the whole wide world from which to choose, and be supportive as she experiments, discovers, and finds her way.

She will find far more "success" and happiness, too, if SHE is the one who discovers her interests and strengths. Even if it means some mistakes and missteps (and god-forbid some B's or C's!!) along the way. Kids need to be allowed to struggle some to learn that they can overcome challenges and survive failure. IMHO, our job is to stick by their side to be encouraging and supportive while allowing them
ever more responsibility for their choices and their consequences. Even at age ten.

Finally, I've heard good things about a book called "The Blessing of a B-Minus" or somethimg like that. But i havent reaf ittself. Perhaps others can weigh in? I also much enjoyed a book called "Drive," (something about "Motivation" in the title) which explores the Self Determination Theory research results in a way that is easy to understand and apply to parenting.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 19:37     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
PP again - and I can tell you that solely using "positive reinforcement" techniques does NOT work with my child. Been there, tried that. Of course we praise his efforts and accomplishments, but it is negative attention that makes him achieve.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 19:34     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
OP,

I did not read the whole thread so maybe someone mentioned this already:

There is a slight chance your daughter could have ADD. Does she seem inattentive, does she daydream, spend a lot of time "working" but actually nothing really gets done? Is she disorganized, does she lose things easily? Can she multitask routinely or is it a big effort?

This may be why your lecturing and yelling may have the positive effect that you see - I was the same, and now my son is the same. ADD brains have so much going on inside that it is hard to keep focused on academic work towards a long-term goal (good grades). So the brain needs a sharp stimulant sometimes to keep that focus, and there is nothing so neuron-stimulating as the acerbic expression of a parent's disappointment, because it acts in a physical way (raising your voice in a disagreeable manner) and also in psychological way (a loved one is disappointed).

Since we are not yet at the point of using medication, yelling so far has proved the most productive way to foster ability in my child. I can also clap loudly, or send him to run around the block very fast. Sad, isn't it? I feel guilt about it every time I do it. If I don't, my otherwise intelligent 8 year old is capable of asserting that there are 6 seconds in a minute. When his brain focuses, of course he realizes that there are 60 seconds in a minute!

Anyway, good luck.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 19:16     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:Oh, and I don't know if you were talking to me or not: I have nothing to say about your parenting style or the place of you in your kid's heart. There are many ways to do things right. Generally yelling (i.e. OP's lament) is not on that list.

I still think, though, if you focus on outcomes and not inputs you risk turning your child into a performer. Something tells me you are not.


Not focusing on outcomes? Or not focusing on inputs?

As a parent you need to do both. My kids excel in academics and extra-curricular activities - I will not say that they are "extremely bright" or "genius". That is for others to determine and judge. And if a genius is someone who excels without any effort - then I think we should also believe in purple unicorns.

And different kids respond to different things. Some need a gentle reminder, a string tied around their finger, or yelling. As long as the "yelling" is not the only input (and it seems that OP is talking to her kids about things as well) - then I do not really see the problem.

Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 18:10     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Oh, and I don't know if you were talking to me or not: I have nothing to say about your parenting style or the place of you in your kid's heart. There are many ways to do things right. Generally yelling (i.e. OP's lament) is not on that list.

I still think, though, if you focus on outcomes and not inputs you risk turning your child into a performer. Something tells me you are not.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 18:08     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I am Asian. I will make sure that my kids are successful and would have learned time management and work ethics by the time they leave my house.

Some kids will learn these earlier than others, and I will be there each step of the way to help, guide and support them in every way that I can. However, after senior year - regardless of their intrinsic motivation and personality - they will be launched successfully.



OP again. I am not Asian born but do have many Asian friends. I actually am of Western European descent. I thought I would throw that it in since my methods are probably considered Eastern.


LOL. No, I don't consider it Eastern. I consider it very old school type of parenting. You do due diligence as a parent with some tough love thrown in. You try and figure out what each child needs and you give them that support and discipline.

I feel that I have a larger responsibility in raising my kid, than any other entity. I do not feel that that is the role of the school system or the teachers. I see the school as as the workplace and the teacher as the boss. My kids job is to do well at their work. I tell them that if they are successful, I am the one person who gains nothing, but am the happiest and proudest of their achievements. I also tell them that I will not be there for the rest of their lives - so the values I can teach them while they are under my care should be solid enough to last them a lifetime. My job is to watch them carefully, understand the weakness in their personality, work habits etc, and work hard with them to fix it.

If I need to yell - then I will yell. If I need to wake up at 4:00 am to make coffee for them and wake them up to study, I will do that. It is not always easy, but my life for these few years revolves around their needs. Being a parent is not easy.


OP again....I give my kids the same lecture about how their job is to do well in school. My husband and I work full time and I've told both kids that our job to ensure that we are able to pay the mortgage, private school, food, clothing, activities etc so that they may have a much better life than we did growing up. I've never used the teacher is the boss analogy but I do equate the tests to their "performance" reviews. When my DD gets a really bad grade, I tell her that if I continually performed like that at work that I would lose my job. I also tell my kids that I can't support them forever but I will give them the tools so they will be successful. I love your words though very sweet.


Alas, I don't think we could ever be friends. I hate that phrase (job to do well in school). Really hate it. And the performance review thing - oh boy are you in for it. What will you do if your child works hard and still does poorly on something? Doing well in elementary and doing well later are different things. Either you focus on inputs and study skills, or your teenage years will be rough, particularly if there is a younger kid in the house to whom this stuff comes easier.

Signed, mother of an extremely bright but underachieving lovely 14 year old who I don't want to hate me.


I am the Asian mother and I am curious that you would label your child "extremely bright but underachieving". If your child is underachieving then how do you know that they are extremely bright? And who even says that about their own kid? Should this praise not come from the teachers around him, who have seen 100s of children of all caliber in their class-room?

Secondly, being a disciplinarian does not mean that your child will hate you. If you operate with this fear then you will not really do justice to your duty as a parent. I am a tough mom but I am loved by my children. My kids are happy kids because doing well in school also makes them feel accomplished and improves their confidence and self-worth. It also opens doors for them and give them opportunities that they would not get otherwise.

I make myself available to my children and they know that they are my priority. I spend enough quality and quantity time with them, that I do not fear about my place in their lives or their hearts.


You can't recognize underachieving - how is it not obvious when someone is extending their best effort or not? Not sure why you think that is such an odd thing to say. It's the little things: getting the content right but slap dash presentation. Honestly, if he paid half the attention to English class that he does to piano, I wouldn't be posting. I don't think he's a genius, but having known many I can say that genius is a curse as well as a blessing. I do know that I've heard the same story from many different teachers over many years.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 17:25     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I am Asian. I will make sure that my kids are successful and would have learned time management and work ethics by the time they leave my house.

Some kids will learn these earlier than others, and I will be there each step of the way to help, guide and support them in every way that I can. However, after senior year - regardless of their intrinsic motivation and personality - they will be launched successfully.



OP again. I am not Asian born but do have many Asian friends. I actually am of Western European descent. I thought I would throw that it in since my methods are probably considered Eastern.


LOL. No, I don't consider it Eastern. I consider it very old school type of parenting. You do due diligence as a parent with some tough love thrown in. You try and figure out what each child needs and you give them that support and discipline.

I feel that I have a larger responsibility in raising my kid, than any other entity. I do not feel that that is the role of the school system or the teachers. I see the school as as the workplace and the teacher as the boss. My kids job is to do well at their work. I tell them that if they are successful, I am the one person who gains nothing, but am the happiest and proudest of their achievements. I also tell them that I will not be there for the rest of their lives - so the values I can teach them while they are under my care should be solid enough to last them a lifetime. My job is to watch them carefully, understand the weakness in their personality, work habits etc, and work hard with them to fix it.

If I need to yell - then I will yell. If I need to wake up at 4:00 am to make coffee for them and wake them up to study, I will do that. It is not always easy, but my life for these few years revolves around their needs. Being a parent is not easy.


OP again....I give my kids the same lecture about how their job is to do well in school. My husband and I work full time and I've told both kids that our job to ensure that we are able to pay the mortgage, private school, food, clothing, activities etc so that they may have a much better life than we did growing up. I've never used the teacher is the boss analogy but I do equate the tests to their "performance" reviews. When my DD gets a really bad grade, I tell her that if I continually performed like that at work that I would lose my job. I also tell my kids that I can't support them forever but I will give them the tools so they will be successful. I love your words though very sweet.


Alas, I don't think we could ever be friends. I hate that phrase (job to do well in school). Really hate it. And the performance review thing - oh boy are you in for it. What will you do if your child works hard and still does poorly on something? Doing well in elementary and doing well later are different things. Either you focus on inputs and study skills, or your teenage years will be rough, particularly if there is a younger kid in the house to whom this stuff comes easier.

Signed, mother of an extremely bright but underachieving lovely 14 year old who I don't want to hate me.


I am the Asian mother and I am curious that you would label your child "extremely bright but underachieving". If your child is underachieving then how do you know that they are extremely bright? And who even says that about their own kid? Should this praise not come from the teachers around him, who have seen 100s of children of all caliber in their class-room?

Secondly, being a disciplinarian does not mean that your child will hate you. If you operate with this fear then you will not really do justice to your duty as a parent. I am a tough mom but I am loved by my children. My kids are happy kids because doing well in school also makes them feel accomplished and improves their confidence and self-worth. It also opens doors for them and give them opportunities that they would not get otherwise.

I make myself available to my children and they know that they are my priority. I spend enough quality and quantity time with them, that I do not fear about my place in their lives or their hearts.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 17:11     Subject: Straight A's but only if I yell
Anonymous wrote:OP, you really don't seem to understand the difference between INTERNAL and EXTERNAL motivation. If you did, you would be making very different choices in your relationship with your DD.

Please slow down and think about what you're doing.

Your behavior is teaching your daughter that there are two reasons to study and work hard in school:

(1) To please you (or to avoid you yelling at her); and

(2) To keep her privileges (or not lose them to your punishment.)

Nothing in there focuses on how i feels TO HER to succeed or fail in school, or how it feels TO HER to work hard and enjoy the good results (learning something new, getting a good grade, discovering a new strength).

Do you see the difference???

So far, you've directly taught her to work hard in order to get (or not lose) something from someone else. Specifically, from YOU.

My mother did the same thing and yes, it worked in the short term. As a child and teenager, I got excellent grades in order to avoid her yelling at or grounding me. As I got a little older, I also developed a deep resentment of her for trying to control my choices and for crowding out my ability to figure things out on my own. It was terrible my for our relationship. We were never close growing up (though I always put on a fake happy face in order keep her off my back), and we're certainly not close now that I'm an adult.

You seem to care about credentials, so here are mine: I skipped a grade as a child, and I went to an Ivy League college. I struggled tremendously my first few years there. My mother had been so heavy-handed about the external motivators that I had never learned what it felt like to be internally motivated. Ultimately I figured things out, but there was a TREMENDOUS cost to me in my 20s and 30s, not to mention it destroyed my relationship with my mother. (Who wants to be close to someone who yells at them?)

My advice: BACK OFF NOW!! Your DD is ten, which is the perfect age for her to start experiences the natural consequences of her choices. If she doesn't put the work in, she will get a lower grade. Let her figure out what she thinks about that and what she might want to do differently next time.

In the meantime, continue to hold "high standards" by telling her what you know she's capable of achieving when she puts in the hard work. But let her experiment with making some choices. Ten is the perfect age to grant her a little more autonomy.

Finally, you said in an earlier post that you think she works hard in order to "not disappoint you" or something like that. My guess is she doesn't give a crap about disappointing you. She just wants you to stop yelling at her and start giving her her stuff back. Basically, she does what you say to get you off her back. (Again, that's EXTERNAL motivation.)
If you want to read more on this subject, I highly recommend starting with Carol Dweck's work (she's a Stanford professor, in case you care), as well as with Self-Determination theory (University of Rochester.)

Here's a good intro article to get you started on the Self-Determination Theory of Motivation: http://www.education.com/reference/article/self-determination-theory-of-motivation/


Thanks PP for your heartfelt response. When you first responded, I didn't realize how much this issue really hits home with you. I'm really sorry that your mom's parenting style had such a negative impact on your relationship. I definitely don't want my daughter to have such a negative opinion of her childhood. Curious did your mom talk to you as a child about being internally motivated? I do talk with my daughter lot about internal motivation but she still doesn't get it- though I think she is getting better. I'll definitely check out the book from the library next time we go.

BTW- I don't take things away after every bad grade (everyone has a bad day) but if I start to see a pattern that is when I get ready upset. I wouldn't want my DD to skip a grade either. 18 years really isn't that much time either.

FWIW- My parents had the completely opposite philosophy. It was sink or swim and they weren't going to help me either way. Given the people that they were, I'm glad that I didn't receive their lousy guidance but if I had more support as a child from more highly educated parents, I would have done better. I'm sure that everyone has a complaint though about how they were raised.

I don't think an Ivy is the answer for every child either. I want my DD to be successful. If I had my druthers she would earn a hard science degree but if she chooses liberal arts, I'm okay with that as long as she does her best and she has a long term plan. I think a degree from Podunk U (very specialized in demand field) could be worth more than a degree from Harvard (i.e. Women's Studies). I'm also not sending her to a private school for status either. My DD is a very sweet slightly socially awkward kid who loves her private school and her equally slightly socially awkward friends. We have specific reasons for sending the kids there but I don't want to get into it on this forum. I will say they love their schools.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2014 17:02     Subject: Re:Straight A's but only if I yell
I'm the PP who is a professor, and I'm also a former underachiever. I had a horrible time in k-12 because my grades never reflected my test scores, and I often heard that I didn't work hard. I squeaked into a SLAC, and did really well in college and loved it, and I went on to get a Ph.D. Halfway through my Ph.D. I realized that I just don't learn like other people, and a linear, regimented teaching style just didn't work for me. If I could go back in time and make one recommendation to my parents that would improve my k-12 performance, I would ask them to find my child-self a school that valued creativity and let me explore ideas. Give me a couple year and a great library and I will do excellent work, but the drills, worksheets, and five-paragraph essays of my childhood were never going to produce meaningful learning for me.