Anonymous wrote:There is something very dangerous/frightening about so many parents accepting this and defending this practice. Talk about a slippery slope to state control!

What happens when, for example, the list one day only includes groups with a particular religious or political affiliation. Sometimes you need to look at the principal at stake. I can't be the only liberal on this board, can I?

Which principal is at the stake? Is burning involved?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It should bother you that the public school system REQUIRES your child to "volunteer" - actually to provide free work for approved organizations. That is chilling and it should bother any parent.

In addition to the disturbing, big-brother aspect of the system compelling the service, it should bother you that NONE of this actually teaches the value of volunteerism! Volunteering is about choosing to use one's time in a helpful/selfless way for the betterment of others. This is about fulfilling a requirement, not volunteering.

My mother had me volunteer in high school for college applications. It gave me positive work experience and allowed me to get to know career fields I was interested in doing. If anything, I find it disturbing parents do not encourage their kids to volunteer more.

Your MOTHER had you do it: fine, great. I support that 100%! The issue here is the government forcing children to volunteer as a requirement of graduation. People, please think about this: the STATE/GOV'T is forcing this on your children. Whether the work is good or not is IRRELEVANT. The STATE (through MCPS) should not be able to FORCE children to do this. Again, it isn't volunteering if you are forced to do it.

It worries me that so many parents on here seem to not be able to distinguish the notion of state coercion. Frightening in a free society.

Then homeschool your kids if you do not like what the public school has to offer. I think its very reasonable to expect kids to be involved in the community. I think there should be more volunteering and internships to give kids exposure to the real world. I did not particularly enjoy it so it was forced, but the reasoning behind it was correct as it is correct now. You have the choice to send your kids to MCPS or not. If you don't like it, leave.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Your MOTHER had you do it: fine, great. I support that 100%! The issue here is the government forcing children to volunteer as a requirement of graduation. People, please think about this: the STATE/GOV'T is forcing this on your children. Whether the work is good or not is IRRELEVANT. The STATE (through MCPS) should not be able to FORCE children to do this. Again, it isn't volunteering if you are forced to do it.

It worries me that so many parents on here seem to not be able to distinguish the notion of state coercion. Frightening in a free society.

The STATE is also FORCING children to be instructed in English, mathematics, science, social studies, art, music, health, and physical education. State coercion. Frightening.

Do you really not get how that is different? I could understand having a different opinion about these things, but do you really not understand this distinction. I guess I just assume that there are so many well educated people on these boards - and so many lawyers in particular - that some things are just obvious.

If you genuinely don't understand the difference then I completely understand how these issues of fundamental freedoms and the necessary checks on public institutions (the state, public school systems and public officials) would go over your head.

Yes, I really do not understand this distinction. It may be obvious to you, but it is not obvious to me. Please explain. I am listening.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Your MOTHER had you do it: fine, great. I support that 100%! The issue here is the government forcing children to volunteer as a requirement of graduation. People, please think about this: the STATE/GOV'T is forcing this on your children. Whether the work is good or not is IRRELEVANT. The STATE (through MCPS) should not be able to FORCE children to do this. Again, it isn't volunteering if you are forced to do it.

It worries me that so many parents on here seem to not be able to distinguish the notion of state coercion. Frightening in a free society.

The STATE is also FORCING children to be instructed in English, mathematics, science, social studies, art, music, health, and physical education. State coercion. Frightening.

Do you really not get how that is different? I could understand having a different opinion about these things, but do you really not understand this distinction. I guess I just assume that there are so many well educated people on these boards - and so many lawyers in particular - that some things are just obvious.

If you genuinely don't understand the difference then I completely understand how these issues of fundamental freedoms and the necessary checks on public institutions (the state, public school systems and public officials) would go over your head.

You must be the 6th grade hazing parent - do you really need to fight and complain about EVERYTHING? I would suggest private school as a better option for you but they will have just as many rules that may not be exactly what you want for your kid at that moment. It may be that homeschooling in the back woods of Montana is the only thing that will work for you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is something very dangerous/frightening about so many parents accepting this and defending this practice. Talk about a slippery slope to state control!

What happens when, for example, the list one day only includes groups with a particular religious or political affiliation. Sometimes you need to look at the principal at stake. I can't be the only liberal on this board, can I?

No, you're not the only one. I find the SSL requirement pretty offensive and view it as free forced labor. I definitely don't think it should be legal. Has anyone ever brought a court case? DC has spent significant time volunteering with an organization, but it's not on the list. Because it's structured as a for profit company instead of non-profit, DC's time can't count toward SSL even though the activity she's doing would be eligible for SSL if it were provided thru a non-profit. Silly. FWIW, volunteer time with religious groups doesn't count so that the SSL requirement doesn't conflict with separation of church/state, and I don't think that will ever change. But, even though our family is completely secular, I feel sorry for the kids who do significant work with their church group on homeless or other similar non-religious issues and can't get credit for their work.

Actually, they probably can. My kids do volunteer work with homeless shelters through their church youth group, and they get SSL hours for it. They cannot get SSL hours for work that is done during a religious service or purely for the benefit of the religious community, but they can get hours for work they do with the church that benefits the community at large.

Isn't this part of the social education of the students? Private schools put a big premium on this and have higher community service requirements than MCPS that tend to be much tougher to meet. Why can't we have the same high expectations of our public school students. My DC has gotten a lot out of SSL hours. The fact that it is an organized program means that many organizations are tuned in to SSL opportunities and there are a lot of different things kids can get involved in. I suspect that without the requirement it wouldn't be as easy to find these opportunities, or they may not exist at all. And really it's just not that hard to meet the SSL requirements, often without leaving school grounds. There are SSL opportunities listed at our school all the time. My DC stopped filling out the forms once he exceeded the requirements but still does SSL eligible activities on a regular basis.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Your MOTHER had you do it: fine, great. I support that 100%! The issue here is the government forcing children to volunteer as a requirement of graduation. People, please think about this: the STATE/GOV'T is forcing this on your children. Whether the work is good or not is IRRELEVANT. The STATE (through MCPS) should not be able to FORCE children to do this. Again, it isn't volunteering if you are forced to do it.

It worries me that so many parents on here seem to not be able to distinguish the notion of state coercion. Frightening in a free society.

The STATE is also FORCING children to be instructed in English, mathematics, science, social studies, art, music, health, and physical education. State coercion. Frightening.

Do you really not get how that is different? I could understand having a different opinion about these things, but do you really not understand this distinction. I guess I just assume that there are so many well educated people on these boards - and so many lawyers in particular - that some things are just obvious.

If you genuinely don't understand the difference then I completely understand how these issues of fundamental freedoms and the necessary checks on public institutions (the state, public school systems and public officials) would go over your head.

Anonymous wrote:As a parent, I have no problem with requiring students to give back to the community.

Then, good for you. Enforce that with your child in your role as a parent. You don't need the state for force it upon you or your child. Imagine this, another parent might (and many do) object. So their values are not respected. It isn't strictly speaking about what any parent has or doesn't have a problem with -- it has to do with the fundamental issue of: what should the state be allowed to force the children to do.

I'll bet there are some parents in my school that don't have a problem with requiring students to pray in school, but we don't do that (obviously a violation of church and state). Similarly (but no, not exactly the same for the nudges out there!), forcing students to "volunteer" for these organizations is tantamount to forcing speech onto those children (a constitutional violation). Yes, the courts have found that forced action -- and here the action is working for an approved list of organizations - can be viewed in these terms.

As a parent, I have no problem with requiring students to give back to the community.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Your MOTHER had you do it: fine, great. I support that 100%! The issue here is the government forcing children to volunteer as a requirement of graduation. People, please think about this: the STATE/GOV'T is forcing this on your children. Whether the work is good or not is IRRELEVANT. The STATE (through MCPS) should not be able to FORCE children to do this. Again, it isn't volunteering if you are forced to do it.

It worries me that so many parents on here seem to not be able to distinguish the notion of state coercion. Frightening in a free society.

The STATE is also FORCING children to be instructed in English, mathematics, science, social studies, art, music, health, and physical education. State coercion. Frightening.

+1

FYI, many churches and other religious orgs are approved for SSL hours by MCPS. The issue is whether the work is religion-based, not whether it is done by a church. So teaching religion classes would not be approved, whereas feeding the homeless from a church basement (assuming no evangelism/religious component existed) would count (if the org was approved).

Anonymous wrote:
Your MOTHER had you do it: fine, great. I support that 100%! The issue here is the government forcing children to volunteer as a requirement of graduation. People, please think about this: the STATE/GOV'T is forcing this on your children. Whether the work is good or not is IRRELEVANT. The STATE (through MCPS) should not be able to FORCE children to do this. Again, it isn't volunteering if you are forced to do it.

It worries me that so many parents on here seem to not be able to distinguish the notion of state coercion. Frightening in a free society.

The STATE is also FORCING children to be instructed in English, mathematics, science, social studies, art, music, health, and physical education. State coercion. Frightening.

I went to a high school that required 240 hours of community service in order to graduate. Students could volunteer at any non-profit, as well as local parks, city agencies and political campaigns (regardless of political affiliations.) You could also earn 10 hours for giving blood and get credit for anyone who donated on your behalf.

It instilled a tremendous work ethic in all of us and to this day many of us give back to the community.

I totally support getting kids out into the community to give back

Anonymous wrote:There is something very dangerous/frightening about so many parents accepting this and defending this practice. Talk about a slippery slope to state control!

What happens when, for example, the list one day only includes groups with a particular religious or political affiliation. Sometimes you need to look at the principal at stake. I can't be the only liberal on this board, can I?

No, you're not the only one. I find the SSL requirement pretty offensive and view it as free forced labor. I definitely don't think it should be legal. Has anyone ever brought a court case? DC has spent significant time volunteering with an organization, but it's not on the list. Because it's structured as a for profit company instead of non-profit, DC's time can't count toward SSL even though the activity she's doing would be eligible for SSL if it were provided thru a non-profit. Silly. FWIW, volunteer time with religious groups doesn't count so that the SSL requirement doesn't conflict with separation of church/state, and I don't think that will ever change. But, even though our family is completely secular, I feel sorry for the kids who do significant work with their church group on homeless or other similar non-religious issues and can't get credit for their work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It should bother you that the public school system REQUIRES your child to "volunteer" - actually to provide free work for approved organizations. That is chilling and it should bother any parent.

In addition to the disturbing, big-brother aspect of the system compelling the service, it should bother you that NONE of this actually teaches the value of volunteerism! Volunteering is about choosing to use one's time in a helpful/selfless way for the betterment of others. This is about fulfilling a requirement, not volunteering.

My mother had me volunteer in high school for college applications. It gave me positive work experience and allowed me to get to know career fields I was interested in doing. If anything, I find it disturbing parents do not encourage their kids to volunteer more.

Your MOTHER had you do it: fine, great. I support that 100%! The issue here is the government forcing children to volunteer as a requirement of graduation. People, please think about this: the STATE/GOV'T is forcing this on your children. Whether the work is good or not is IRRELEVANT. The STATE (through MCPS) should not be able to FORCE children to do this. Again, it isn't volunteering if you are forced to do it.

It worries me that so many parents on here seem to not be able to distinguish the notion of state coercion. Frightening in a free society.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are they really allowed to work in middle school? I thought there were child labor laws about that.

Sure there are child labor laws but they apply to machinery, working to midnight, and other age appropriate areas.

That's not quite accurate.

In Maryland, children under 14 are not allowed to work, except under certain specified circumstances. Children aged 14-17 are allowed to work with a work permit, but their hours are limited by state law, and their tasks are limited by federal law.

http://www.dllr.state.md.us/labor/wages/minorfactsheet.shtml