Anonymous
12/20/2013 07:57
Subject: Re:1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
DH in the last 6 mo entered into his uncle business, with possibility of taking it over I know that is totally different. He has been working on average 260 hrs a month, we never see him. That would average out around 3000 hrs. It's taking it's toll on me
Anonymous
12/19/2013 23:09
Subject: 1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here. Is 1950 about average for billable requirements or is that on the low side?
About average.
At my firm, it is a real requirement, not a floor. You would be in good standing and able to progress if you hit that number. But we also didn't have a culture of padding bills which is very prevalent and how many people bill 2400+ hours/year.
To hit 1950 in my practice area required me to work a lot, including about 50% of weekends. Combined with the non-billable requirements, I am very suspect that anyone really bills very high hours.
Right.
An honest 1950 is a lot of 60 hr. weeks including weekends.
What you're describing is a 62% realization rate. That's terribly inefficient. While I am skeptical of New York lawyers that are billing more than 90% of the time they are in the office, there is no reason non-billable work needs to be more than a third of your time. Even if you bill only 75% of your time (which you can certainly do honestly), 60 hours a week for a full calendar year is 2400 hours.
and p.s., I'm just talking billed, not collected (which as we know is what matters far more than what's billed)....
I didn't say it was 60/wk. every week for a calendar year, I said it was a lot of 60 hr. weeks. That's the reality that I've seen for many years in many different situations. I don't do this, but many do. Not to mention that 1950 seems on the low end.
If it was that easy I wouldn't see hordes of people swarming to get out of BigLaw (which I do).
Anonymous
12/19/2013 23:07
Subject: 1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here. Is 1950 about average for billable requirements or is that on the low side?
About average.
At my firm, it is a real requirement, not a floor. You would be in good standing and able to progress if you hit that number. But we also didn't have a culture of padding bills which is very prevalent and how many people bill 2400+ hours/year.
To hit 1950 in my practice area required me to work a lot, including about 50% of weekends. Combined with the non-billable requirements, I am very suspect that anyone really bills very high hours.
Right.
An honest 1950 is a lot of 60 hr. weeks including weekends.
What you're describing is a 62% realization rate. That's terribly inefficient. While I am skeptical of New York lawyers that are billing more than 90% of the time they are in the office, there is no reason non-billable work needs to be more than a third of your time. Even if you bill only 75% of your time (which you can certainly do honestly), 60 hours a week for a full calendar year is 2400 hours.
I didn't say it was 60/wk. every week for a calendar year, I said it was a lot of 60 hr. weeks. That's the reality that I've seen for many years in many different situations. I don't do this, but many do. Not to mention that 1950 seems on the low end.
If it was that easy I wouldn't see hordes of people swarming to get out of BigLaw (which I do).
Anonymous
12/19/2013 22:58
Subject: 1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here. Is 1950 about average for billable requirements or is that on the low side?
About average.
At my firm, it is a real requirement, not a floor. You would be in good standing and able to progress if you hit that number. But we also didn't have a culture of padding bills which is very prevalent and how many people bill 2400+ hours/year.
To hit 1950 in my practice area required me to work a lot, including about 50% of weekends. Combined with the non-billable requirements, I am very suspect that anyone really bills very high hours.
Right.
An honest 1950 is a lot of 60 hr. weeks including weekends.
What you're describing is a 62% realization rate. That's terribly inefficient. While I am skeptical of New York lawyers that are billing more than 90% of the time they are in the office, there is no reason non-billable work needs to be more than a third of your time. Even if you bill only 75% of your time (which you can certainly do honestly), 60 hours a week for a full calendar year is 2400 hours.
Anonymous
12/19/2013 22:52
Subject: Re:1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
Anonymous wrote:My dad is a partner at a Big Law law firm. It's a stressful life, and he works a lot, but on the other hand he has a lot of flexibility and freedom about when he bills and what hours he works. When I was a baby, he was an associate in a large firm and my mom worked full time. He worked more than my mother hours-wise, but since he is not a litigator, he was available to work from home as backup care when I was sick and take conference calls with clients and write briefings in between taking care of a sick kid. They also staggered their schedules, so my mom worked 7:30-4 and my dad got to the office around 9 to minimize child care hours. After my brother was born, he switched to working as a lawyer for the federal government. This gave him a lot more family time with two small children and he was able to get out of the office by 5 most days for a large pay cut. He did that until my brother was around 7 and I was 10. At that point, he was concerned about being able to pay for college and started working for a big national firm again. He works crazy hours sometimes, especially when closing a deal, and frequently works weekends. He often doesn't get home until 9 PM (less of an issue when we were in junior high/high school) during a busy time. He has months where he travels every other week. However, to an extent there is a degree of flexibility about when he bills. He has been on the phone with a client picking me up from the airport, or if he needs to go to a doctor's office in the middle of the day, that's fine unless he has a meeting. He can step out of a family gathering to take a conference call from home. He has the money to afford a really nice lifestyle--much cushier than when he was a fed. Also, when he went back to private practice, my mom stopped working, so she pretty much takes care of all the life stuff which is a big factor in terms of what makes it work. His firm also allows people to work from home as long as they bring in the billable hours, so sometimes he does that. There is a woman partner who almost never comes in unless there is a meeting and cuts child care hours by removing her commute.
He can do things that I would never be able to do at my job, like randomly decide to take a two week vacation (again, it doesn't matter when he works, as long as he gets his hours in...also he can afford to). So I guess it depends on the culture of the office. Do they allow working from home? Are you the sort of person who is comfortable working any spare time (like after your kids are in bed?) He saw it from both sides...the compatibility with having a small child (flexibility, ability to work from home, availability to provide back up care on occasion when I had a fever as a toddler provided I was asleep most of the time) and incompatibility with having small children (having to work late all the time, working on weekends).
His firm is an anomaly, IMO.
Far too many lawyers are living in the past and can't deal with not having "face time" as the primary evidence that someone is actually working. It's ridiculous but that is the way it is in most places even now IMO/IME.
Anonymous
12/19/2013 22:50
Subject: 1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here. Is 1950 about average for billable requirements or is that on the low side?
About average.
At my firm, it is a real requirement, not a floor. You would be in good standing and able to progress if you hit that number. But we also didn't have a culture of padding bills which is very prevalent and how many people bill 2400+ hours/year.
To hit 1950 in my practice area required me to work a lot, including about 50% of weekends. Combined with the non-billable requirements, I am very suspect that anyone really bills very high hours.
Right.
An honest 1950 is a lot of 60 hr. weeks including weekends.
Anonymous
12/19/2013 21:51
Subject: Re:1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
left my firm before having kids but was routinely there until late at night, routinely worked weekends etc. We didn't have a minimum billable requirement but we had so much work I routinely billed 2400+. I would not go back to a firm again unless it was some kind of niche position not expected to work a lot of crazy hours.
If this firm doesn't require face time, it could work - you could leave at a normal hour, get the kids to bed, then log back in from home for a 2-3 hours.
You definitely will need a nanny if you are going to do this - one without any childcare responsibilities of her own, so she can stay late with no prior notice, work weekends, etc.
the long commute is not good though - you won't really have enough free time to be spending that much of it in the car.
If this firm doesn't require face time, it could work - you could leave at a normal hour, get the kids to bed, then log back in from home for a 2-3 hours.
You definitely will need a nanny if you are going to do this - one without any childcare responsibilities of her own, so she can stay late with no prior notice, work weekends, etc.
the long commute is not good though - you won't really have enough free time to be spending that much of it in the car.
Anonymous
12/18/2013 15:34
Subject: 1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
I posted earlier at 11:18 but you also need to consider career stability. Most people don't make partner so unless you have personal or family connections that can bring in a substantial amount of business you need to have a backup plan for what you're going to do if you don't make partner.
Anonymous
12/18/2013 15:12
Subject: 1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The problem is that that is the requirement, but it is a minimum - if there is more work, you're going to have to exceed it. Once you have the offer in hand, I would ask to speak to associates there and find out more about how much they actually bill/work.
THIS.
My firm's minimum is 1800, but if I billed less than 2100 - 2300 per year, they would fire me.
You know what, if you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, like your pretty boy over there, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?
Because they don't want to tell potential new hires that. They tell them that we value work/life balance.
LOL - But when they say that they mean "you will have work/life balance compared to other sweat shop law firms." LOL
Anonymous
12/18/2013 14:46
Subject: Re:1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
My dad is a partner at a Big Law law firm. It's a stressful life, and he works a lot, but on the other hand he has a lot of flexibility and freedom about when he bills and what hours he works. When I was a baby, he was an associate in a large firm and my mom worked full time. He worked more than my mother hours-wise, but since he is not a litigator, he was available to work from home as backup care when I was sick and take conference calls with clients and write briefings in between taking care of a sick kid. They also staggered their schedules, so my mom worked 7:30-4 and my dad got to the office around 9 to minimize child care hours. After my brother was born, he switched to working as a lawyer for the federal government. This gave him a lot more family time with two small children and he was able to get out of the office by 5 most days for a large pay cut. He did that until my brother was around 7 and I was 10. At that point, he was concerned about being able to pay for college and started working for a big national firm again. He works crazy hours sometimes, especially when closing a deal, and frequently works weekends. He often doesn't get home until 9 PM (less of an issue when we were in junior high/high school) during a busy time. He has months where he travels every other week. However, to an extent there is a degree of flexibility about when he bills. He has been on the phone with a client picking me up from the airport, or if he needs to go to a doctor's office in the middle of the day, that's fine unless he has a meeting. He can step out of a family gathering to take a conference call from home. He has the money to afford a really nice lifestyle--much cushier than when he was a fed. Also, when he went back to private practice, my mom stopped working, so she pretty much takes care of all the life stuff which is a big factor in terms of what makes it work. His firm also allows people to work from home as long as they bring in the billable hours, so sometimes he does that. There is a woman partner who almost never comes in unless there is a meeting and cuts child care hours by removing her commute.
He can do things that I would never be able to do at my job, like randomly decide to take a two week vacation (again, it doesn't matter when he works, as long as he gets his hours in...also he can afford to). So I guess it depends on the culture of the office. Do they allow working from home? Are you the sort of person who is comfortable working any spare time (like after your kids are in bed?) He saw it from both sides...the compatibility with having a small child (flexibility, ability to work from home, availability to provide back up care on occasion when I had a fever as a toddler provided I was asleep most of the time) and incompatibility with having small children (having to work late all the time, working on weekends).
He can do things that I would never be able to do at my job, like randomly decide to take a two week vacation (again, it doesn't matter when he works, as long as he gets his hours in...also he can afford to). So I guess it depends on the culture of the office. Do they allow working from home? Are you the sort of person who is comfortable working any spare time (like after your kids are in bed?) He saw it from both sides...the compatibility with having a small child (flexibility, ability to work from home, availability to provide back up care on occasion when I had a fever as a toddler provided I was asleep most of the time) and incompatibility with having small children (having to work late all the time, working on weekends).
Anonymous
12/18/2013 14:45
Subject: Re:1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
I had a billing requirement of 1800 when I left biglaw. DH had a horrible commute so I had to do pickup and drop off myself. I ended up hiring a part-time babysitter, who would pick up DD from daycare, and watch her until I came home. I was in a manageable group with steady hours, and so I generally worked from 8 am until around 6 or 7. It was manageable, but I still left and took a major pay cut to get a fed lawyer job. So, even though my daily practice was manageable and few fire drills and no all nighters, I still needed to hire someone to pick DD up b/c as a law firm lawyer, you need flexibility to stay late, and you don't want to be scrambling to arrange for pickup when you have a substantive emergency project to work on. I also worked many nights (after DD had gone to sleep) and many weekends on huge, substantive nonbillable projects that firms ask you to do as a "feather in your cap" but are a total pain when you want to spend time with your kid.
So you need to ask yourself if you are going for short-term to make money for a few years, or is this your long-term strategy? It's a very different culture from most government agencies, where there is more of a culture of leaving at around 5 to go home...
Also, if you've never billed time before, I think you will end up working more initially as you learn the ropes of your firm and the specific requirements in terms of how to record your time. So you will probably be more inefficient initially.
Although I miss the prestige and the $$$ and the greater professionalism of the firm I was in (as compared to my agency), realistically, I would not go back. But I'm glad to have been there, both professionally and financially.
Law firm life does afford you some more flexibility, in the sense that you are not required to be in the office as you are in government. So, in a law firm, you don't have to take leave to go to a doctor's appointment. You are judged based on your hours. I still found it to be way more work in toto than government lawyering.
So you need to ask yourself if you are going for short-term to make money for a few years, or is this your long-term strategy? It's a very different culture from most government agencies, where there is more of a culture of leaving at around 5 to go home...
Also, if you've never billed time before, I think you will end up working more initially as you learn the ropes of your firm and the specific requirements in terms of how to record your time. So you will probably be more inefficient initially.
Although I miss the prestige and the $$$ and the greater professionalism of the firm I was in (as compared to my agency), realistically, I would not go back. But I'm glad to have been there, both professionally and financially.
Law firm life does afford you some more flexibility, in the sense that you are not required to be in the office as you are in government. So, in a law firm, you don't have to take leave to go to a doctor's appointment. You are judged based on your hours. I still found it to be way more work in toto than government lawyering.
Anonymous
12/18/2013 14:45
Subject: Re:1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
I was a partner on a case where the senior associate emailed the entire trial team (25 lawyers, including the client) that her C was scheduled for the following Tuesday at 9am so the weekly call would have to be moved from 10 am to noon. I think she saw it as a sign of strength and commitment. She was an outstanding lawyer and this made her seem a little off actually.
Anonymous
12/18/2013 14:41
Subject: Re:1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
Anonymous wrote:Really sad stories.
OP don't leave the Feds. Even as a non-lawyer I know that is a coveted family position.
I don't disagree with much of what has been said in this thread, but I left a fed job about two years ago to return to a firm and overall have been happy with the choice so far. (And the part that stresses me out has more to do with advancement potential than hours).
Anonymous
12/18/2013 14:18
Subject: Re:1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
Really sad stories.
OP don't leave the Feds. Even as a non-lawyer I know that is a coveted family position.
OP don't leave the Feds. Even as a non-lawyer I know that is a coveted family position.
Anonymous
12/18/2013 13:39
Subject: 1950 billable hours req - manageable with kids?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The problem is that that is the requirement, but it is a minimum - if there is more work, you're going to have to exceed it. Once you have the offer in hand, I would ask to speak to associates there and find out more about how much they actually bill/work.
THIS.
My firm's minimum is 1800, but if I billed less than 2100 - 2300 per year, they would fire me.
You know what, if you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, like your pretty boy over there, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?
Because they don't want to tell potential new hires that. They tell them that we value work/life balance.