Anonymous
12/09/2013 14:34
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
Anonymous wrote:This is not a teacher problem, this is a county problem. The new position of the central office is to blame the teachers for implementing a system that they, not the teachers, chose.
If you dangle out a grade that can only be given in rare instances, can not be given for working above grade level, must be on work that they child did not have prior knowledge on, isn't given if the child meets he description on the rubric because someone else did more and needs to far exceed what they are doing in class but this can't be described you will frustrate and demotivate students. Young kids will feel bad or upset. Older kids will say screw this and not care anymore.
MCPS may say that they are not doing a bell curve but only a fool would not realize that this is exactly what their ES model creates. The edict that ES is rare and that teachers can not teach to ES level 's what creates the curve. Its common sense that a kid that is gifted or whose parents have the resources to give them lots of enrichment would be the ones who could spontaneously demonstrate the above description consistently. A smart kid or kid in the middle of the IQ range that works really hard will never measure up no matter what they do because these kids need to know where the goal is to reach it.
ES shouldn't be easy but it also shouldn't be unattainable. There is a big difference between the two.
The outcome is a system that is anti-achievement, demoralizing, and tells kids not to care about academics. Its also teaching young kids that achievement doesn't count. Ironically, the new system "tracks" kids to underperform rather than rewarding kids for trying to overcome challenges.
The replies on this thread are all basically saying the same thing as the teacher..its better to give up. This is sad.
I agree with all you have stated. In fact, I don't understand how everyone doesn't agree because it seems so apparent. Thank you for articulating it perfectly.
Anonymous
12/09/2013 14:20
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
My DD feels really bad about never getting ES grades too. It doesn't matter how much I tell her it doesn't matter. To her, it does matter. Each time she seems to hope that she has done enough and each time she meets with disappointment. She's had tears before about it too. Her teacher is very caring and has said that she is seeing this problem often with many students and there is no good solution.
Kids naturally seek validation for their effort. People naturally seek rewards. It actually strikes me as naive and hypocritical for anyone to be saying that kids should just ignore the grades and take pride in doing their best. I doubt the people saying this could live by this standard in their own lives.
As a parent, I don't understand the point of the ES. What was the goal in putting out a grade that kids don't know how to attain or rarely get? How can anyone who works with kids not see how this is harmful?
Kids naturally seek validation for their effort. People naturally seek rewards. It actually strikes me as naive and hypocritical for anyone to be saying that kids should just ignore the grades and take pride in doing their best. I doubt the people saying this could live by this standard in their own lives.
As a parent, I don't understand the point of the ES. What was the goal in putting out a grade that kids don't know how to attain or rarely get? How can anyone who works with kids not see how this is harmful?
Anonymous
12/09/2013 14:05
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
Anonymous wrote:And yet, somehow, the kids in my kids' classes seem to work, pay attention, be happy, and like to do well, just like they used to do under the previous grading system. I wonder how that can be possible.
I doubt that you have any idea what the other kids your kids' class think or are doing. Are you the MCPS staffer who has outed yourself on other threads?
I originally thought that ES didn't matter and didn't really care. It does affect my DS. We moved here last year from private school. In his previous school DS would worked much harder. Now, its a struggle to get him to do more than the minimum because he learned last year that it didn't matter. He can get a "P" as long as he does what is in the box for a P. He tried many times to do what was in the box for an ES but never got one. He's figured out that it doesn't matter, its unobtainable so just get the work done and go do something else. His teacher didn't say to give up but she also pointed out that because ES is rare she can't give it even if the child meets the expectation in the ES box and goes beyond what was required for a P.
I honestly can't blame him because its got to be frustrating to do what was expected for something and then have it held back. What bothers me most is that there is no reward for trying to do better. I guess public education just sucks. You get what you pay for.
No, I am not an MCPS staffer. (And I also don't consider saying "I am an MCPS staffer" as "outing".)
And you're right, I don't know how every single child in my children's classes feels, deep down. I do know, however, that as a whole, the kids appear to be doing pretty much exactly what they used to do, when they used to get O/S/I or letter grades.
Also, I disagree that there's no reward for trying to do better. Of course there's a reward: namely, doing better. Does your child need a grade to know if he did better?
Anonymous
12/09/2013 13:47
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
And yet, somehow, the kids in my kids' classes seem to work, pay attention, be happy, and like to do well, just like they used to do under the previous grading system. I wonder how that can be possible.
I doubt that you have any idea what the other kids your kids' class think or are doing. Are you the MCPS staffer who has outed yourself on other threads?
I originally thought that ES didn't matter and didn't really care. It does affect my DS. We moved here last year from private school. In his previous school DS would worked much harder. Now, its a struggle to get him to do more than the minimum because he learned last year that it didn't matter. He can get a "P" as long as he does what is in the box for a P. He tried many times to do what was in the box for an ES but never got one. He's figured out that it doesn't matter, its unobtainable so just get the work done and go do something else. His teacher didn't say to give up but she also pointed out that because ES is rare she can't give it even if the child meets the expectation in the ES box and goes beyond what was required for a P.
I honestly can't blame him because its got to be frustrating to do what was expected for something and then have it held back. What bothers me most is that there is no reward for trying to do better. I guess public education just sucks. You get what you pay for.
Anonymous
12/09/2013 13:15
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
Anonymous wrote:The outcome is a system that is anti-achievement, demoralizing, and tells kids not to care about academics. Its also teaching young kids that achievement doesn't count. Ironically, the new system "tracks" kids to underperform rather than rewarding kids for trying to overcome challenges.
And yet, somehow, the kids in my kids' classes seem to work, pay attention, be happy, and like to do well, just like they used to do under the previous grading system. I wonder how that can be possible.
Anonymous
12/09/2013 13:03
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure why it's necessary for a kid in early elementary years to even know that they're being graded. My kid is only in K, but I didn't share his evaluation with him, I just told him that I met with his teacher and she told me that she really likes having him in her class and that we're all proud of how well he listens and behaves. I think I'm going to continue to withhold grade information from him for at least a few more years.
Your kid is going to start receiving graded work directly from the teacher. I think that is what we are talking about here.
But how will he know what ES or P means? If he never gets an ES, how would he know that it's even possible? I don't mean to sound snarky at all - just wondering. I wouldn't want him to know.
Because they will ask? My first grader would absolutely ask what grades meant and what was a good one. And, at the core, grades are feedback to students as much as they are to parents. Do you mean to say that you wouldn't want your kid to know whether they have mastered a subject or whether is is still a challenge for her? Grades can serve as an incentive. I assume your child gets a "color" each day for her behavior? Does she know what the colors mean? Would you want to withold that from him? I honestly do not mean to sound snarky either, and your approach can make sene for a kindergartener. But much beyond that it starts to seem both naive and counterproductive.
Anonymous
12/09/2013 12:56
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
This is not a teacher problem, this is a county problem. The new position of the central office is to blame the teachers for implementing a system that they, not the teachers, chose.
If you dangle out a grade that can only be given in rare instances, can not be given for working above grade level, must be on work that they child did not have prior knowledge on, isn't given if the child meets he description on the rubric because someone else did more and needs to far exceed what they are doing in class but this can't be described you will frustrate and demotivate students. Young kids will feel bad or upset. Older kids will say screw this and not care anymore.
MCPS may say that they are not doing a bell curve but only a fool would not realize that this is exactly what their ES model creates. The edict that ES is rare and that teachers can not teach to ES level 's what creates the curve. Its common sense that a kid that is gifted or whose parents have the resources to give them lots of enrichment would be the ones who could spontaneously demonstrate the above description consistently. A smart kid or kid in the middle of the IQ range that works really hard will never measure up no matter what they do because these kids need to know where the goal is to reach it.
ES shouldn't be easy but it also shouldn't be unattainable. There is a big difference between the two.
The outcome is a system that is anti-achievement, demoralizing, and tells kids not to care about academics. Its also teaching young kids that achievement doesn't count. Ironically, the new system "tracks" kids to underperform rather than rewarding kids for trying to overcome challenges.
The replies on this thread are all basically saying the same thing as the teacher..its better to give up. This is sad.
If you dangle out a grade that can only be given in rare instances, can not be given for working above grade level, must be on work that they child did not have prior knowledge on, isn't given if the child meets he description on the rubric because someone else did more and needs to far exceed what they are doing in class but this can't be described you will frustrate and demotivate students. Young kids will feel bad or upset. Older kids will say screw this and not care anymore.
MCPS may say that they are not doing a bell curve but only a fool would not realize that this is exactly what their ES model creates. The edict that ES is rare and that teachers can not teach to ES level 's what creates the curve. Its common sense that a kid that is gifted or whose parents have the resources to give them lots of enrichment would be the ones who could spontaneously demonstrate the above description consistently. A smart kid or kid in the middle of the IQ range that works really hard will never measure up no matter what they do because these kids need to know where the goal is to reach it.
ES shouldn't be easy but it also shouldn't be unattainable. There is a big difference between the two.
The outcome is a system that is anti-achievement, demoralizing, and tells kids not to care about academics. Its also teaching young kids that achievement doesn't count. Ironically, the new system "tracks" kids to underperform rather than rewarding kids for trying to overcome challenges.
The replies on this thread are all basically saying the same thing as the teacher..its better to give up. This is sad.
Anonymous
12/08/2013 17:34
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Defining ES grade, and making it almost impossible to achieve (I don't know why), is an MCPS policy.
Absolutely!!!!
We are supposed to give ES when the student goes way beyond the obvious correct answers. However, a student with prior knowledge on the subject cannot be a candidate for ES because students are graded only on what is taught in the classroom.
Very very confusing indeed.
We were told however to give more ES's.
…and there it is folks.
I'd just love to be a fly on the wall to hear how "prior knowledge" is defined.
Anonymous
12/08/2013 17:17
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
While I don't agree with the MCPS policy on limiting the number of ESs or the teacher telling you to tell your DD to stop trying for an ES, it's not a bad thing for your daughter to realize now that she's not always going to be the "best" in her class and that's ok too. That's the reality of life as harsh as it may sound. It doesn't have to mean she shouldn't try her hardest, but trying your hardest shouldn't only be for the purpose of getting the highest grade. Maybe all the teacher was telling you was now might be a good time to teach her that she shouldn't be so focused on what grade she gets as opposed to just doing her best for the sake of doing her best. You (and the teacher) can certainly still keep her motivated to try hard by praising her hard work and notable improvements.
Anonymous
12/08/2013 15:55
Subject: Child upset about never getting an ES
Anonymous wrote:It didn't make sense to me when things were graded on a bell curve in my college physics course of all high-achievers, leaving the majority of grade-obsessed students with a B for A work, and it sure as heck makes no sense in elementary school. If that is truly this teacher's policy, you need to find out where that is coming from and how to change it. If your daughter is working her butt off only to be told that there's no point because two kids in the class are smarter than you, then you need to get your daughter into a better teacher's room so she can truly receive the guidance that can help her reach her potential. Just because she might need to work harder doesn't mean she can't be on top.
That teacher needs to be taught that she shouldn't be making as much money because there are much better teachers than her. Let the top two teachers get their full salary and everyone else make less and be told that they will never earn more because two teachers are better than them and always will be. Suddenly their policy might not seem so great, especially if they are 'checking all the boxes off on the list' they were given to earn the top pay.
+1000
Anonymous
12/08/2013 14:49
Subject: Child upset about never getting an ES
It didn't make sense to me when things were graded on a bell curve in my college physics course of all high-achievers, leaving the majority of grade-obsessed students with a B for A work, and it sure as heck makes no sense in elementary school. If that is truly this teacher's policy, you need to find out where that is coming from and how to change it. If your daughter is working her butt off only to be told that there's no point because two kids in the class are smarter than you, then you need to get your daughter into a better teacher's room so she can truly receive the guidance that can help her reach her potential. Just because she might need to work harder doesn't mean she can't be on top.
That teacher needs to be taught that she shouldn't be making as much money because there are much better teachers than her. Let the top two teachers get their full salary and everyone else make less and be told that they will never earn more because two teachers are better than them and always will be. Suddenly their policy might not seem so great, especially if they are 'checking all the boxes off on the list' they were given to earn the top pay.
That teacher needs to be taught that she shouldn't be making as much money because there are much better teachers than her. Let the top two teachers get their full salary and everyone else make less and be told that they will never earn more because two teachers are better than them and always will be. Suddenly their policy might not seem so great, especially if they are 'checking all the boxes off on the list' they were given to earn the top pay.
Anonymous
12/08/2013 14:46
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
Anonymous wrote:Another example of MCPS urging regression to the mean under Starr. They'll be happiest when your DD stops trying as hard, in which case it will be easier to show how the low-achievers have caught up. Sorry you have to put up with this. It used to be so much better.
"Regression to the mean" does not mean what I think you think it means.
Anonymous
12/08/2013 11:48
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
Another example of MCPS urging regression to the mean under Starr. They'll be happiest when your DD stops trying as hard, in which case it will be easier to show how the low-achievers have caught up. Sorry you have to put up with this. It used to be so much better.
Anonymous
12/08/2013 07:54
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
OP, I would clarify with the teacher: does an ES mean the child exceeds the grade level standard, or does it mean she exceeds the performance of most of the other kids in the class?
If your child is focused on grades right now, I think personally it is important to help her learn how to achieve a few of the top grades. Pick the area she's strongest in, ask the teacher to help you and her see examples of what type of performance would exceed the grade level standard, and work with her at home (on HW at least) so she can get there.
I'm thinking it might be something like, in writing, kids are told an ES would be for writing at least 5 sentences on a topic... but in actuality, they need to write 5 sentences that are complex (have some good transition words) and have interesting vocabulary words, neat handwriting, etc., and some thoughtful responses. If your daughter saw examples of this writing, maybe she'd understand why just writing 5 simple sentences wasn't enough for an ES?
If your child is focused on grades right now, I think personally it is important to help her learn how to achieve a few of the top grades. Pick the area she's strongest in, ask the teacher to help you and her see examples of what type of performance would exceed the grade level standard, and work with her at home (on HW at least) so she can get there.
I'm thinking it might be something like, in writing, kids are told an ES would be for writing at least 5 sentences on a topic... but in actuality, they need to write 5 sentences that are complex (have some good transition words) and have interesting vocabulary words, neat handwriting, etc., and some thoughtful responses. If your daughter saw examples of this writing, maybe she'd understand why just writing 5 simple sentences wasn't enough for an ES?
Anonymous
12/06/2013 21:20
Subject: Re:Child upset about never getting an ES
Anonymous wrote:
But how will he know what ES or P means? If he never gets an ES, how would he know that it's even possible? I don't mean to sound snarky at all - just wondering. I wouldn't want him to know.
No idea, but kids know these things.... Just like they seem to know who is in the top reading group and who gets pulled out for extra help. I am talking about 2nd graders and up.
The ES is weird, there is nothing we can do about it so I stopped worrying about it and my kid stopped worrying about it. He took pride in kicking butt on the MAP-R and MAP-M tests instead.