^^^and I agree with the PP a while back that not being able to speak Standard American English, in addition to whatever other variant(s) of English you might speak, can put you at a big disadvantage in American society. (An exception, of course, is if you speak Received Pronunciation. Then Americans will swoon as soon as you open your mouth.)

Anonymous wrote:

I was with you until your second paragraph. This isn't bad because it's associated with black people. It's bad because it's incorrect grammar. If you travel anywhere in the world and meet someone who speaks English, it won't matter what the color of your skin is; you'll make a bad impression as an American speaking in a grammatically incorrect manner. I don't want to undo have to undo mistakes learned at school, especially those that shouldn't be taught in the first place. I will do it, of course, but it's not too much to ask someone with a college degree to speak grammatically correct English while teaching.

But there isn't really such a thing as one single universal form of English that is grammatically correct. American English is different from UK English is different from Indian English is different from Nigerian English is different from Jamaican English is different from Singaporean English.

What's more, grammar changes over time. In Shakespeare's time, it was perfectly correct to say, "He is come to see you.", and it's in Jane Austen too. We wouldn't say that now. 100 years ago, it would have been incorrect to say, "I graduated from high school" (you were supposed to say, "I was graduated from high school").

So when you're asking someone with a college degree to speak grammatically-correct English while teaching, which grammar, and which English, do you mean? You mean modern Standard American English.

Anonymous wrote:Years ago, I taught primarily AA students. An expert came in and told us that we should not correct their "ebonics". One of the AA teachers hit the roof. She said these kids will never get decent jobs if we don't teach proper English.

So true! I taught at a private school in Hawaii where many of the teachers would slip into Hawaii Pidgin English every once in a while. Our director was very clear that Pidgin was fine outside of work, but Standard English was expected while at school.

OH MY GOD -- YOU JUST SAID BLACK FOLK LEARN TO SPEAK STANDARD ENGLISH FROM THEIR WHITE TEACHERS AND PEERS!!
Newsflash black people are not born speaking "ebonics!
How ignorant can one person be

That's not what I meant to say. There are plenty of black people who speak in Standard English--it is a class thing more than anyone else. But since people on here are concerned about the poor minority kids who don't get exposure to standard English at home, I was just saying that in the schools that people are discussing here, even if the teacher doesn't use standard grammar, they get plenty of exposure at school. There are plenty of upper middle class black people in DC in particular who speak standard English. And there are plenty of white people who have rural accents and grammatical constructs that sound "uneducated."

The term "African American vernacular English" comes from what linguists describe it as in academic literature instead of "ebonics" which is riddled with controversy. Essentially, if you talk to a linguist, as a dialect there's nothing "wrong" with it. It has internally consistent grammar, although it isn't the dialect that is associated with the wealthy and powerful in the country. Many of the issues with it being English that is "wrong" rather than English that is correct but a specific dialect has to do with longstanding racial and class undertones in this country. In Switzerland, for example, there are a number of regional dialects that deviate significantly grammatically from Standard German, but people use those spoken dialects and embrace it as part of their heritage (and written and formal communication is done in Standard German).

Did you listen to Rachel Genteal during the Martin trial? Lots of people could not understand her. That's the problem.

I am a white person, and I didn't have any issues understanding Rachel Genteal during the Martin trial. Unlike some of my peers, I didn't need to turn the subtitles on when watching the Wire. I think in large part it is laziness on white people's part saying "OH THOSE DUMB POOR GHETTO BLACKS WITH THEIR INCORRECT ENGLISH" rather than trying to understand what they are saying. And I think this has a long history of unfortunate racial undertones that people sound be less judgmental of. In the black community, the status quo is the status quo, so I think they should be encouraged to speak in a fashion that is consistent with how people speak in upper middle class America if they want upward mobility. But there is a side of me that fails to understand how other nations (like Switzerland) can have cultures where dialect is spoken without these undertones of "my way is the best way."

Did you listen to Rachel Genteal during the Martin trial? Lots of people could not understand her. That's the problem.

Anonymous wrote:

I repeat what the AA teacher said when we were told to "accept" Ebonics::These children will never get good jobs if we don't teach them to speak properly.

This is certainly a complex and loaded issue. I agree that inner city kids should learn how to speak standard English if they want to blend into mainstream society and have professional jobs in general--how you speak impacts how others perceive you. However, there are certainly people who speak in a black dialect who are doing quite well--tell Cornell West and Tavis Smiley that their careers are lacking. But what I was arguing is the demographic for whom this is a complete non-issue are upper middle class white people who send their kids to diverse, but high performing preschools at at the age of 3 or 4 start testing the waters with words like "ain't". By the time they are in school or able to get jobs, they will have long learned that if they speak standard English, that is what opens doors in most of society. I think white upper middle class parents are hand wringing over an issue that is a non-issue for them. At schools where there are high populations of affluent upper middle class people, even more middle class and AA kids get plenty of exposure to standard English through white teachers and their white peers. Where this is an issue is not the high performing schools, it is the schools in poor inner city areas.

And furthermore--why is speaking in a "black" way limiting? Because white people say so, and white people are dominant in positions of power in society. If you expose your children to kids of all different backgrounds, then perhaps in the future this lingering stereotype will not be as prevalent. It has to work both ways--black students learning how to speak standard English and white people putting their prejudices behind them. By freaking out about a bit of african american vernacular English, you're pretty much perpetuating the status quo. Teach your children how to speak standard English. But don't worry too much about "deprogramming" them--society will do that soon enough.

OH MY GOD -- YOU JUST SAID BLACK FOLK LEARN TO SPEAK STANDARD ENGLISH FROM THEIR WHITE TEACHERS AND PEERS!!
Newsflash black people are not born speaking "ebonics!
How ignorant can one person be

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I repeat what the AA teacher said when we were told to "accept" Ebonics::These children will never get good jobs if we don't teach them to speak properly.

I completely agree! But this is a loaded issue. It's something that should be addressed within the AA community.

Yes it should be because:

1) all of the millions of black folk in america live in the same d*** community

2) all black folks accept the concept of "ebonics"

3) all black folks not only accept but speak in "ebonics"

4) white folks do not have and never use any type of slang, colloquialisms and at all times and in all the VARIOUS white communites speak PERFECT STANDARD ENGLISH

5) a lot of you are on some OLD BULL**** (HOW IS THAT FOR EBONICS??)

Anonymous wrote:Oh jeez. I went to DCPS (one of those "JKLM" schools) and some of the teachers and aides didn't always speak 100% grammatically correct English and often spoke with a black dialect. I got a great education there. I am white and upper middle class, and I speak the way my parents speak; I did when I was elementary school age as well. My peers also spoke the way their parents spoke--i.e. generally grammatically correctly. I also read a lot of books--like Tom Sawyer--that were written at least partially in dialect, and I got that people from various backgrounds spoke differently.

Children internalize pretty early on that people perceive you differently if you speak differently, and being white and speaking as if you are white confers advantage socially and academically. I internalized this before I could intellectually comprehend what was going on--if this makes you feel better. It also taught me that people speak differently when they have different cultural backgrounds, and you shouldn't make assumptions about people's intelligence by how they speak. DC has long been a city with a large African American population, and African American vernacular is spoken all over this city--unless you want your kid to live in a bubble, they will encounter black people with black speech patterns, who, yes, are in positions of authority.

I would actually say that after I moved from DC, I realized that I had no issues understanding "black" English the way a lot of upper middle class white people seem to, and I think this is generally a good thing. So I really wouldn't freak out too much about a few "ain'ts" and dropping the "to be" verb in sentences. It does come off as racist, classist, and petty.

WTF IS A BLACK DIALECT?

Anonymous wrote:OP here: It's a lot of "We don't have no . . . ". This was the exact type of stuff DC heard at daycare all the time (along with "I be...", "you be...") and he definitely did pick it up from them. I understand what everyone is saying about parents being the biggest influence, and I would like to believe that. But my husband and I do not speak like that, and neither do any of our family or friends, so daycare was the only way DC could have picked up that sort of "grammar." Now he's getting it at DCPS too and it is driving my crazy. Anyone have a successful conversation with a principal about this? I am worried about it coming off as racist.

Well, let'ssssss seee -- why would it come off as racist?
Hmmmmm....do you feel it would seem culturally insensitive because incorrect grammar is a cultural imperative of one particular racial or ethnic group?
That very idea is racist, tho I am sure that was not your intention.

Anonymous wrote:Last year, our preschool teacher often spoke using african american vernacular english. This year, our teacher speaks standard american english.

I'm usually caught off guard, or at least take notice, when our teachers use AAVE because it's not what we speak. But it is what some people speak, and it's a recognized dialect, and we wouldn't tell a teacher with a southern accent to shut it off.

Currently I am fine with it. When DC is older we probably won't attend the same school, so it will be a non-issue.

LOL! WTH is African American Vernacular English?
I am African American and I may have missed something ...

Anonymous wrote:

I repeat what the AA teacher said when we were told to "accept" Ebonics::These children will never get good jobs if we don't teach them to speak properly.

This is certainly a complex and loaded issue. I agree that inner city kids should learn how to speak standard English if they want to blend into mainstream society and have professional jobs in general--how you speak impacts how others perceive you. However, there are certainly people who speak in a black dialect who are doing quite well--tell Cornell West and Tavis Smiley that their careers are lacking. But what I was arguing is the demographic for whom this is a complete non-issue are upper middle class white people who send their kids to diverse, but high performing preschools at at the age of 3 or 4 start testing the waters with words like "ain't". By the time they are in school or able to get jobs, they will have long learned that if they speak standard English, that is what opens doors in most of society. I think white upper middle class parents are hand wringing over an issue that is a non-issue for them. At schools where there are high populations of affluent upper middle class people, even more middle class and AA kids get plenty of exposure to standard English through white teachers and their white peers. Where this is an issue is not the high performing schools, it is the schools in poor inner city areas.

And furthermore--why is speaking in a "black" way limiting? Because white people say so, and white people are dominant in positions of power in society. If you expose your children to kids of all different backgrounds, then perhaps in the future this lingering stereotype will not be as prevalent. It has to work both ways--black students learning how to speak standard English and white people putting their prejudices behind them. By freaking out about a bit of african american vernacular English, you're pretty much perpetuating the status quo. Teach your children how to speak standard English. But don't worry too much about "deprogramming" them--society will do that soon enough.

I was with you until your second paragraph. This isn't bad because it's associated with black people. It's bad because it's incorrect grammar. If you travel anywhere in the world and meet someone who speaks English, it won't matter what the color of your skin is; you'll make a bad impression as an American speaking in a grammatically incorrect manner. I don't want to undo have to undo mistakes learned at school, especially those that shouldn't be taught in the first place. I will do it, of course, but it's not too much to ask someone with a college degree to speak grammatically correct English while teaching.

Of course. They all have bachelors degrees, some have masters degrees and there is one career-changer with a JD so correct grammar is a given. (I grew up hearing terrible grammar and mine is iffy at times.)

I repeat what the AA teacher said when we were told to "accept" Ebonics::These children will never get good jobs if we don't teach them to speak properly.

This is certainly a complex and loaded issue. I agree that inner city kids should learn how to speak standard English if they want to blend into mainstream society and have professional jobs in general--how you speak impacts how others perceive you. However, there are certainly people who speak in a black dialect who are doing quite well--tell Cornell West and Tavis Smiley that their careers are lacking. But what I was arguing is the demographic for whom this is a complete non-issue are upper middle class white people who send their kids to diverse, but high performing preschools at at the age of 3 or 4 start testing the waters with words like "ain't". By the time they are in school or able to get jobs, they will have long learned that if they speak standard English, that is what opens doors in most of society. I think white upper middle class parents are hand wringing over an issue that is a non-issue for them. At schools where there are high populations of affluent upper middle class people, even more middle class and AA kids get plenty of exposure to standard English through white teachers and their white peers. Where this is an issue is not the high performing schools, it is the schools in poor inner city areas.

And furthermore--why is speaking in a "black" way limiting? Because white people say so, and white people are dominant in positions of power in society. If you expose your children to kids of all different backgrounds, then perhaps in the future this lingering stereotype will not be as prevalent. It has to work both ways--black students learning how to speak standard English and white people putting their prejudices behind them. By freaking out about a bit of african american vernacular English, you're pretty much perpetuating the status quo. Teach your children how to speak standard English. But don't worry too much about "deprogramming" them--society will do that soon enough.

Anonymous wrote:I repeat what the AA teacher said when we were told to "accept" Ebonics::These children will never get good jobs if we don't teach them to speak properly.

I completely agree! But this is a loaded issue. It's something that should be addressed within the AA community.

I repeat what the AA teacher said when we were told to "accept" Ebonics::These children will never get good jobs if we don't teach them to speak properly.