Anonymous wrote:Isn't the secret just a lot of expectation? The parents expect the kids do well in school and the kids don't want to disappoint, so they do well; that continues from grade school through HS to college to prof school. When I see highly successful communities (as a whole - of course not everyone in any community can be a MD/JD/MBA), I always assume that growing up it isn't about self esteem or "an A for effort" -- it is about results. Not sure why this would be different for Jewish vs. Asian vs. anyone else.

well no it can't be just lots of expectation...there has to be innate talent and ability as well.

otherwise just because i have high expectations for my son and daughter, they won't automatically turn into the next mickey mantle and steffi graf respectively.

Anonymous wrote: So while they drive their kids hard when young, they don't expect or want them to be miserable forever just for money.

So you spend the first half of your life pleasing your parents, doing something you don't like and the second part of your life realizing how miserable you are?

Anonymous wrote:

It started with my SN oldest. I realized he wasn't going to get anywhere if I just let him lazy along as the therapists told me. Now he's mainstreamed and doing well. I gave him good discipline starting when he was a toddler, and many many hours of practicing whatever it is he had to learn. I can't tell you how many hours per day (for how many months) he practiced learning to walk, or talk! When you struggle to do the most natural things, it gives you quite a work ethic. Then I realized the only way of getting good at something is to work at it - duh, right? But modern lax parenting will have it otherwise.

Wow, that's impressive. What was he diagnosed with? Did you stay at home with him?

You know, I have a friend with a SN child and I'm surprised they haven't been doing any therapy with him at home, though his mom is SAH. They just wait for the state provided therapist to do it once or twice a month. I think the child had a really chance to catch up to mainstream with a lot of intense therapy, but it seems like his parents just gave up and with every year his chances are getting slimmer and slimmer. I don't think he'll make it into the NT school.

Anonymous wrote:
So now my neurotypical youngest is 3 and sits down for hours to read, write, count, alongside her siblings. She plays violin. What was hard with DC1 is easy for her, both because she has more skills and and because she benefits from his studious example. I expect this from her (ie, I do not take no for an answer) because I know she can do it. When she herself realizes she can achieve what I asked, she's proud of herself and wants to continue. Virtuous cycle.

Your 3 year old can read and write?
How do you make them sit for hours? I can't make mine sit for 15 minutes.

Isn't the secret just a lot of expectation? The parents expect the kids do well in school and the kids don't want to disappoint, so they do well; that continues from grade school through HS to college to prof school. When I see highly successful communities (as a whole - of course not everyone in any community can be a MD/JD/MBA), I always assume that growing up it isn't about self esteem or "an A for effort" -- it is about results. Not sure why this would be different for Jewish vs. Asian vs. anyone else.

Anonymous wrote:

Correct, PP, I am absolutely saying that Tiger Parents abound in Jewish communities as well as other groups. I am a Eurasian Tiger parent

OK, again, we're talking about JEWISH parents, not Chinese or Indian. I don't think Jews are Tiger Parents.

Anonymous wrote:

+1. Grew up in an Indian family and same was true.

OK, this topic is not about Indian family.

I'm Eastern European and non Jewish and straight As and higher education were non-negotiables. I think it's a common mindset in Europe.

"He" likes us best.

In our Jewish family we tell lots of fart jokes. That's part of our secret to happiness, which is how we judge success.

YMMV

Anonymous wrote:Education was #1 to my parents. They would not buy into the whole designer clothes, fancy house thing at all. We lived modestly, but always knew college and grad school would be paid for and we were expected to do well.

I think the pressure was sometimes hard on me and I had some mild bouts of depression. There was also pressure to look good to find a nice Jewish boy and while I always ate healthy foods I would say I definitely went through bouts of eating disordered behavior and over-exercise. Never dropped too low in weight or lost my period, but was way too obsessive.

I carry on the emphasis on education above material things with my own kids. I also will probably carry on the tradition of saying if we pay for college, you need to chose a major that allows you to get a decent job. Philosophy, drama, and most liberal artsy majors were a no go. Unlike my parents, I will not pressure my kids to get top grades. I will praise effort even if the results are not great. I will be more open minded about career paths and if my kids want to be actors or something-go for it, but we aren't funding it at all. Want a degree in education or something marketable I am-hoping to be able to fund that.

I come from a family like this (non-jew) but you know what.....i WANT to be in a position (HHI 500k+) where I CAN foot the bill if my DC's want to go to RSID for art/design or USC/Tisch for Film.

If I am in a position where I can ONLY fund my DC's to go into 'marketable' educational paths, then I will have felt some slight failure on my part.

OP, Jews have had a long tradition of literacy. Remember the pressure to read the Torah and read it well.

That said, be careful. In Eastern Europe in the old days, it was not uncommon for the girls to be married off by 15 to and 17 year old boy who did not possess the skills to make a good income to support the family, hence poverty.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:. Most of the ones I know, including my ILs, drill their children into academic perfection and the odd bad grade (an A- ?) shames the whole family.

Are you saying Jewish parents are Tiger Moms?

How do you drill them into perfection? I can't make my 4 year old sit down and trace letters for 5 minutes.

Correct, PP, I am absolutely saying that Tiger Parents abound in Jewish communities as well as other groups. I am a Eurasian Tiger parent

It started with my SN oldest. I realized he wasn't going to get anywhere if I just let him lazy along as the therapists told me. Now he's mainstreamed and doing well. I gave him good discipline starting when he was a toddler, and many many hours of practicing whatever it is he had to learn. I can't tell you how many hours per day (for how many months) he practiced learning to walk, or talk! When you struggle to do the most natural things, it gives you quite a work ethic. Then I realized the only way of getting good at something is to work at it - duh, right? But modern lax parenting will have it otherwise.
So now my neurotypical youngest is 3 and sits down for hours to read, write, count, alongside her siblings. She plays violin. What was hard with DC1 is easy for her, both because she has more skills and and because she benefits from his studious example. I expect this from her (ie, I do not take no for an answer) because I know she can do it. When she herself realizes she can achieve what I asked, she's proud of herself and wants to continue. Virtuous cycle.

My husband is Jewish, and I must say that his entire family is shiftless.

Education was #1 to my parents. They would not buy into the whole designer clothes, fancy house thing at all. We lived modestly, but always knew college and grad school would be paid for and we were expected to do well.

I think the pressure was sometimes hard on me and I had some mild bouts of depression. There was also pressure to look good to find a nice Jewish boy and while I always ate healthy foods I would say I definitely went through bouts of eating disordered behavior and over-exercise. Never dropped too low in weight or lost my period, but was way too obsessive.

I carry on the emphasis on education above material things with my own kids. I also will probably carry on the tradition of saying if we pay for college, you need to chose a major that allows you to get a decent job. Philosophy, drama, and most liberal artsy majors were a no go. Unlike my parents, I will not pressure my kids to get top grades. I will praise effort even if the results are not great. I will be more open minded about career paths and if my kids want to be actors or something-go for it, but we aren't funding it at all. Want a degree in education or something marketable I am-hoping to be able to fund that.

Anonymous wrote:The truth is, most developed countries in this world (as well as high-achieving and educated strata of developing countries) expect more of their kids and are less fearful of destroying their self-esteem than Americans.

I have experience with Japanese and Vietnamese families. Most of the ones I know, including my ILs, drill their children into academic perfection and the odd bad grade (an A- ?) shames the whole family. Most of the time, it works. My nephews and nieces, already at or headed for the top universities, have iron determination and great confidence. When it does not work, however, the poor kid suffers a great deal. I know of 2 cases.

+1. Grew up in an Indian family and same was true. The expectations were very high and an A- or a B+ was considered a bad grade. And we were always surrounded by other high achieving kids, as their Indian parents had the same expectations of them; so when you saw your friends 2 yrs older than you getting into the Ivys, Stanford, med school, whatever -- you wanted it too. I think it's just a survival mentality that immigrants from developing countries have. In India, to have any kind of decent standard of living, you need to be a doctor or an engineer or business owner (pretty much - that's changing as the economy develops), so that's what Indian parents had drilled into their heads and that's what they required of their kids, even after they came to America where you can major in communications and have a perfectly fine life bc they didn't "get" that sort of profession.

I do agree with the PP though -- you are seeing burnout amongst the Indian-Am professionals in their late 20s-30s. They have spent so much time chasing what they SHOULD want, that they never pursued what they did want. Some of them are doing it now -- I now know more than one Indian-Am professional who is leaving medicine, law etc. to teach, open a business, go into the gov't/politics. Their parents are for the most part ok with it -- frankly they don't have much say over their 35 yr old but even so, many parents feel "satisfied" that their kid achieved in medicine/law/ibanking etc. and now has money stashed away so they can have an "easier" life/profession. So while they drive their kids hard when young, they don't expect or want them to be miserable forever just for money.