Anonymous wrote:I think you both have things you need to work on. I don't see anything wrong with child being taught to respect adults with sir and ma'am or apologizing for poor behavior. I also don't have an issue with kids at that age being supervised on stairs as we absolutely supervise. You state you are very permissive and are. They are two different parenting styles. If you had your child come and jump on our couch, I would be really pissed. That is inappropriate behavior and if you did not say something, I absolutely would. I don't allow my kids to jump on the couch, so I am not allowing yours. And, it is appropriate to expect a 4 year old to apologize for bad behavior. Next time stay at a hotel where they will charge you for the furniture your child breaks. They will probably be much more comfortable as will you. She may need to relax a little and find alternatives to yelling but you need to set better rules and expectations for behavior for your kids.

I have to agree with this post. I didnt read any actions taken that were per se abusive, rather they are strict. I also dont think its so bad to require sir and ma'am and apologies. I wish i did more of that (well, not sir/maam, but requiring more respectful language). The yelling..well, lets just say that some days i find myself yelling at my boisterous kids much more than i am proud of, but i know im a great and loving mom.

The only whiff of abuse was the way you describe the way the kids react to their own parents. That seems unusual to me, kids that age are typically clingy to even the strictest of parents, and would be thrilled to see them after a long trip.

The way you describe your sil's interaction with your niece is very troubling though, and i think very sad.

I think you both have things you need to work on. I don't see anything wrong with child being taught to respect adults with sir and ma'am or apologizing for poor behavior. I also don't have an issue with kids at that age being supervised on stairs as we absolutely supervise. You state you are very permissive and are. They are two different parenting styles. If you had your child come and jump on our couch, I would be really pissed. That is inappropriate behavior and if you did not say something, I absolutely would. I don't allow my kids to jump on the couch, so I am not allowing yours. And, it is appropriate to expect a 4 year old to apologize for bad behavior. Next time stay at a hotel where they will charge you for the furniture your child breaks. They will probably be much more comfortable as will you. She may need to relax a little and find alternatives to yelling but you need to set better rules and expectations for behavior for your kids.

Next time you're in their town, drop a note to the mom in the mailbox (that way it won't be traced to you b/c it is postmarked here). Tell her what you've seen. Let her deal with it from there.

Remember one thing, OP, bullies respond to strength. Your sister is a bully.

OP here. For a while I couldn't find the thread. I didn't realize that this family relationships forum existed.

I don't know much about my niece's mother; according to my sister, she is a flaky, selfish, negligent mom. Of course, I can't really believe anything my sister says about her. My niece also sometimes says things to suggest that her mom is dumb, but I think that comes from the influence of my BIL and sister. My niece also says that her step-siblings (her mom remarried) and step-dad are not nice to her, and that her mom doesn't do anything about it. I am not sure to what degree this is true.

I have often thought to myself that if I were her (my niece's mom), I would want to know. I think that, to some degree, she does know. My sister has told me how she (niece's mom) has blown up at my sister and/or BIL, saying that my sister is too hard on my niece, etc. etc. So I think she has an idea, but I don't know if she knows how bad it truly is. I have really been tempted, many times, to call her. I have even looked up her address and phone number, and looked her up on Facebook. I could definitely contact her, but since I don't really know what she's like, and I don't know if she is that much better than my sister and BIL, I don't know if I should. And if she ever mentioned to my sister that I had called her, my sister would never, ever forgive me and I am pretty sure that she would never want to see me ever again. Also, part of me says, what do I know? maybe I should just 'MYOB' like so many people on DCUM advise.

I have been posting a lot here. It is helpful to be able to "talk" to people and get feedback. One time when I tried to talk to my mom about this, I was telling her about how my sister had called my niece a dumbass. And I said to my mom, "isn't that horrible?" My mom's response was, "Well, that's just how [your sister] is, and she talks like that to pretty much anyone, not just [niece], so it's not personal, you know?"

Obviously the situation is about more than your kids getting yelled at, but my sister lets my nephew run wild at our house and it drives me nuts. If she won't say anything I will. If he doesn't respond I will raise my voice. We've had our couch broken by him jumping on it and the tv screen cracked because he threw the remote at it. My sister thinks I'm too strict and he's only acting his age. They don't really come to stay anymore. It's sad because I love seeing them, but it's so stressful never knowing what will happen next. So yes I will yell at someone else's child to prevent our stuff getting broken

What do you know about your niece's mother? Is she emotionally abusive, as well? I hope to God she is a good mother who treats this poor girl well. Do you think your niece is telling her mother any of this?

Here's something to consider, OP: if one of your daughters had a stepmother like this and was suffering under this treatment, would you want to know about it? Do you believe she has a right to know what is happening to her child?

you need to call her on mistrestment of neice

ur sister is crazy and you sound like you are afraid of her

Anonymous wrote:What did your sister do to your niece?

I'd recommend cutting visits short. Go for the bday and leave, say you have other commitments. Don't spend the night.

OP here. It's a long, ongoing story with my niece. My niece is not my sister's biological child, and my sister despises my niece's mom. I don't think my sister can look at my niece without seeing her [my niece's] mother, whom she loathes. My niece is the target of insulting comments, heavy chores (way more than I think is appropriate for a girl her age)...just general nastiness. Basically every interaction my sister has with my niece is mean. The poor girl cannot do anything right in my sister's eyes. It's abuse, in my opinion.

We do try to cut the visits short. This past one we stayed only one night, which is very taxing for us because it means a 5-hour drive, staying over one night, and then turning around and making the 5-hour drive back. It's exhausting. We have sometimes stayed in a hotel halfway through the trip to break up the drive. My sister and BIL always get annoyed when we tell them that we're only staying one night ("what? what do you mean you're only staying one night? why do you have to leave on saturday? etc")

We have invited my niece up to stay with us, but my sis and BIL always say no because they say that her mom would never allow it (but I really think it's them who won't allow it). I really wish I knew my niece's mom. I have thought more than once about calling her but if it ever got back to my sister, she would disown me for life, definitely. She would never forgive me.

What did your sister do to your niece?

I'd recommend cutting visits short. Go for the bday and leave, say you have other commitments. Don't spend the night.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Someone asked what my mother thinks of all of this. It's a complicated answer. For one, my mother always negates trouble or unpleasantness, or brushes it aside. So she sort of has her head in the sand. Also, she wasn't the greatest mom, either, so I am not sure her judgment is the greatest. Finally, my mother lives for my father (completely dependent on him, he is her everything, more important than anyone or anything including herself), and my father, who is a selfish, money-loving narcissist, adores my BIL and sister because of their financial success. So, since they are so important to my dad, and my dad is so important to my mom, she does not want to admit that there are problems here.

What does your husband have to say about the situation? Like some of the pps, you have my sympathy and I don't see any answer. My concern, given the post above, is that you are falling into your mom's pattern of appeasing bad behavior in order not to risk rocking the boat or estrangement. I don't think you have to cut them off, but I think that cutting them off (or getting cut off by them because you speak truthfully) needs to be an option that you consider. Maybe as an outsider, your husband would have a clearer view of what to do.

OP here. Thank you (and others) for expressing sympathy. We have struggled with what to do about this for years and we have not yet been able to come up with the solution. I am not sure that there is a 'right' solution. It is so hard. Also, my sister and BIL can be very nice people, and can be very loving with my kids (and theirs). I am not saying that this makes their bad behavior okay; I know that it doesn't. I am just saying that they aren't all bad all the time. It's a very gray situation.

My DH is as troubled by what we see as I am. We have never talked about cutting them off entirely. I will have to ask him what he thinks of this, because I am not sure. (One thing I haven't talked about much is the maltreatment of my niece by my sister. Last year when we visited, it was so bad that my DH privately confronted BIL about it. BIL acknowledged it, expressed regret over it, and confided that both my sister and he are in therapy, evidently trying to 'be better.')

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Someone asked what my mother thinks of all of this. It's a complicated answer. For one, my mother always negates trouble or unpleasantness, or brushes it aside. So she sort of has her head in the sand. Also, she wasn't the greatest mom, either, so I am not sure her judgment is the greatest. Finally, my mother lives for my father (completely dependent on him, he is her everything, more important than anyone or anything including herself), and my father, who is a selfish, money-loving narcissist, adores my BIL and sister because of their financial success. So, since they are so important to my dad, and my dad is so important to my mom, she does not want to admit that there are problems here.

What does your husband have to say about the situation? Like some of the pps, you have my sympathy and I don't see any answer. My concern, given the post above, is that you are falling into your mom's pattern of appeasing bad behavior in order not to risk rocking the boat or estrangement. I don't think you have to cut them off, but I think that cutting them off (or getting cut off by them because you speak truthfully) needs to be an option that you consider. Maybe as an outsider, your husband would have a clearer view of what to do.

What did you say when they yelled at your kids?

Never once has a family member yelled at my child. They'd be immediately called on it if they did.

OP, I feel for you. This is a really tough situation. I hate to say it but in my own family, for similar reasons, we have chosen no/minimal contact with certain people. I understand that you want to be a buffer for your sister's children, though, so I am really stumped as to what would be best.

OP again. Someone asked what my mother thinks of all of this. It's a complicated answer. For one, my mother always negates trouble or unpleasantness, or brushes it aside. So she sort of has her head in the sand. Also, she wasn't the greatest mom, either, so I am not sure her judgment is the greatest. Finally, my mother lives for my father (completely dependent on him, he is her everything, more important than anyone or anything including herself), and my father, who is a selfish, money-loving narcissist, adores my BIL and sister because of their financial success. So, since they are so important to my dad, and my dad is so important to my mom, she does not want to admit that there are problems here.