Anonymous wrote:Anyone who has a kid at JKLM doesn't really understand what most people are dealing with. I seriously doubt the differentiated learning includes a majority of kids who are several grades behind their peers. You basically are the gifted class the rest of the parents want for their kids.

That's what I was getting at in my PP about Ward 3 schools + Brent. If the whole class (minus 2) kids at Janney can read 1.3 years ahead of (what IMO is a really unchallenging) "grade level," then that's where the teacher teaches -- and she send those 2 children for remedial help consistent with their IEP.

That doesn't mean the other 22 Janney second graders are "gifted." It means the teacher is teaching toward the middle of her particular cohort, which is on the "S" level of reading instead of the "K" level which is supposedly "on grade level" for a 2nd grader nationwide.

True giftedness is something completely different, and DCPS has no framework for those kids.

MoCo does, starting in 4th. Fairfax does with it's multi-leveled AAP program (the actually gifted kids are at the highest centers; the merely bright affluent kids as with Janney are at different place). Don't know about Arlington or Alexandria.

love, a Janney parent

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who has a kid at JKLM doesn't really understand what most people are dealing with. I seriously doubt the differentiated learning includes a majority of kids who are several grades behind their peers. You basically are the gifted class the rest of the parents want for their kids.

20:49 here--yes, that was my point. That JKLM is the exception rather than the rule. And, yes, there is probably no classroom in my kids' school that has a majority of kids learning below grade-level. But it's not true that my kids' classrooms are de facto gifted programs; there is a wide range of kids in each room, from below grade level to above.

So if most parents want what I have, they want good, in-classroom differentiation--not a gifted program.

Anyone who has a kid at JKLM doesn't really understand what most people are dealing with. I seriously doubt the differentiated learning includes a majority of kids who are several grades behind their peers. You basically are the gifted class the rest of the parents want for their kids.

I was in a highly regarded, rigorous gifted program in grades 6-12. It was great but also isolating and homogenizing. I don't believe for an instant that it was the only way to challenge high-achieving students.

Today, I have two advanced learners at a JKLM school. The older one is three grade levels ahead in reading and mastering all of the math concepts; the younger one has been identified as working ahead of most of his peers. We are quite pleased with the within-classroom differentiation, and my kids are happy and challenged.

They also enjoy the social aspects of school--some of their closest friends are kids from their classes who are not in the advanced groups. I like that they aren't penned in with other like kids.

I expect that Deal and Wilson will also meet their needs, in part because there will continue to be a critical mass of kids who are learning at an advanced pace. I believe that DCPS will work for us and other families in the upper NW cluster.

But I agree with other posters about the broader problem in DCPS--that access to this sort of strong differentiation (which benefits kids at all levels) is largely limited to those with enough money to live in the wealthier parts of the city or enough luck to get into one of the better schools or charters via lottery.

A citywide gifted program isn't going to solve the real problem, which is that there is no systemwide solution for ensuring that all children are taught and challenged at appropriate levels.

I wouldn't be upset at the lack of gifted programs if there weren't so many far-behind students in class. It's a mystery to me how these kids all start in pretty strong early childhood settings, at the ripe old age of 3, and some just don't move along at the right pace Maybe they have learning disabilities, maybe they just aren't that bright, but I'm still shocked how incredibly far behind, particularly in reading, some of these children in DCPS are. And when you task a teacher to manage/teach both these children and DC who was reading 3 grades ahead by the time we left, you know who is left to quietly read in the corner and get bored in group settings.

Maybe we shouldn't ask for gifted programs, maybe we should just ask for more remedial pull-out programs/classes. And stopping social promotion wouldn't hurt, either.

Anonymous wrote:

Yeah there's a lot of the lake woebegone effect with parents who think their little darling is gifted. And maybe she is but if she's in the top 10% of her cohort not the top 3-5%. They had to create a special AAP forum on this board just for parents to kvetch about it.

Again what is your point?? I think you are delusional if you don't think that kids who fall in the top 10% can be years ahead of other kids in a classroom, especially if the class has a significant number of students who are years behind grade level which is common in DC. If a kid, even in the top 10%, is able to work hard and succeed in advanced classes then the more the merrier in my book. Why drag them down too since the bottom line is that it is only natural for a teacher to focus the bulk of her attention on struggling students and only give lip service the rest.

Anonymous wrote:There are many of us with advanced learners in DCPS who are making it work. My children are at Brent, and we are hoping to get into Latin for middle school and high school. My oldest is in 3rd now. He does have a few friends leaving Brent, and I think the parents concerns are around challenge. Fortunately, my bright child is being challenged and loves going to school. His reading level is the equivalent of the end of 4th grade (so one grade ahead), and in his racially diverse class, he is in the middle ability reading group. His teacher told me his reading level, but the info on which reading group is from him (so possibly inaccurate). We have been happy with the ability grouping, and haven't felt the need for more than we've had.

I don't doubt your story but you have said nothing about your lovely child to suggest he's gifted in the actual definition of the word, as it's understood by psychologists and researchers.

I think the elementary schools in ward 3 plus Brent probably do fine with kids reading a grade ahead or doing math one year ahead -- because they're almost homogeneous. It's easy to teach when everyone is on the same page except for the 2 LD kids.

But there is no program in dcps at any level dedicated to a grouping of the top 3% - 5% students nationwide, as determined by a uniform battery of tests such as the WISC

There we go, part of the problem with the debate is of course that those clamoring for G&T programs do so because they think that all of the so many "driven parents" (including them of course) have gifted children. Doesn't surprise me that OP doesn't even have school age children yet. How does he/she know his/hers are gifted?! If these are the parents pestering DCPS for G&T programs, then let's not be surprised that DCPS rolls its eyes saying "here we go again" because all it ends up being is "I want my child to be enrolled with 'like' children". God forbid that these G&T children be poor and/or black.

So, let me rephrase:
Question: "Why don't we have a G&T program?"
Answer: "Because the wrong people are asking for it for the wrong reasons."

Meanwhile, I, who may well have a truly talented child in DCPS, I can but distance myself from the "stroller brigade" (not my word choice) whose requests and claims are too often pitifully uninformed.

Fortunately, we've found DCPS well capable of addressing our child's needs. And, no, I won't share in what supposedly (I quote) "parallel universe" with its "bs enrichment" we've made it happen. Go do your own homework.

Yeah there's a lot of the lake woebegone effect with parents who think their little darling is gifted. And maybe she is but if she's in the top 10% of her cohort not the top 3-5%. They had to create a special AAP forum on this board just for parents to kvetch about it.

. They need a school for troubled youth

http://profiles.dcps.dc.gov/C.H.O.I.C.E.+Academy+Middle%2FHigh+School

http://profiles.dcps.dc.gov/Incarcerated+Youth+Program,+Correctional+Detention+Facility

hope that helps

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that parents want to rate and rank their children into a public school system. You can't do that at any private school. When I hear parents say they want gifted and talented programs, it is all well and good. But there's not enough of gifted and talented students in one grade level to make a school viable.

To make any school viable you would need about 500 kids tested per entry grade level, just to weed out 250. That ain't happening in this city, I don't care how many strollers you see at the park.

It ain't happening. No way, no how.

I think you could probably 500 kids to apply total. When you look at the waitlists for hard to get into DCPS schools they number in the hundreds.

I don't know why you think you need 250 kids per grade level. The average DCPS elementary school is 300-400 from PK-5th grade. If you were having the school start at 2nd or 3rd grade (which is where the MOCO and FCPS programs begin) you'd have a school with maybe 50-75 kids per grade level, so 150-225 if it was a 3-5th grade program. Maybe you'd make it an education campus and have it go from 3rd-8th grade.

Anonymous wrote:There are many of us with advanced learners in DCPS who are making it work. My children are at Brent, and we are hoping to get into Latin for middle school and high school. My oldest is in 3rd now. He does have a few friends leaving Brent, and I think the parents concerns are around challenge. Fortunately, my bright child is being challenged and loves going to school. His reading level is the equivalent of the end of 4th grade (so one grade ahead), and in his racially diverse class, he is in the middle ability reading group. His teacher told me his reading level, but the info on which reading group is from him (so possibly inaccurate). We have been happy with the ability grouping, and haven't felt the need for more than we've had.

Brent is more of an exception in DCPS which leaves many students out of luck.

There are many of us with advanced learners in DCPS who are making it work. My children are at Brent, and we are hoping to get into Latin for middle school and high school. My oldest is in 3rd now. He does have a few friends leaving Brent, and I think the parents concerns are around challenge. Fortunately, my bright child is being challenged and loves going to school. His reading level is the equivalent of the end of 4th grade (so one grade ahead), and in his racially diverse class, he is in the middle ability reading group. His teacher told me his reading level, but the info on which reading group is from him (so possibly inaccurate). We have been happy with the ability grouping, and haven't felt the need for more than we've had.

^^ You're just a few years behind me mentally. You'll be moving soon... enough. There's just no buy in to create the type of programs that are the norm all across the US in DC schools. You actually have people debating the virtuousness of G/T programs here. Really? Um, yes, really. It's scary actually. I couldn't stand the arguing in circles with 1) parents who are apologist and would sacrifice advanced learning thinking it somehow would prevent underachievers from achieving (though they're not achieving anyways), 2) apathetic teachers who don't want to do extra and resent having to prove themselves and 3) the possibility that while it all get's worked out my kid is an experiment. Some experiments fail. Not my kid. So, adios!

I don't know if my child is gifted or not. My question is to why its not even an option in DC schools? Without a testing option how would the schools even know. I am fully committed to any public school that can serve my child and all children. But DCPS isnt doing any favors to kids that are two grades behind either. Social promotion or just assuming that by virtue of sitting next to an advanced student will help them learn is crazy. I made the original post because it does seem to come up regularly in all kinds of school threads. And yes, I am already researching DCPS and charter school options two years out because I truly care about public education and my options in DC. I want to stay in the City but I won't sacrifice my kids to make a point in the schools if thats what it comes down to.

How do we "do our homework" exactly? I have a gifted child, tested and demonstrated, that is currently in a charter. Luckily, I think the charter will continue to serve us well. But, please let me know what options I would have if I were to switch to DCPS, or at least where I would look for those options. My inbound is Thomson if that helps.