Anonymous
Post 05/24/2013 08:10     Subject: Re:To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I get so ticked off for the kids who are in the racial minority that people like OP (and like the Rosenfelds) think they are undeserving of the spots at these programs. What century is this?


Well, quite honestly until they remove these kinds preferences based on race in other admission programs you're going to continue to see this kind of second guessing.


No. This is not a process problem. A process problem would be -- to what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions? (Answer: it's not.) This is an attitude problem -- if THOSE (undeserving) people got in, it must be because of their race, because otherwise THOSE (undeserving) people would never get in and take away a place that should have gone to (deserving) people like us.
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2013 07:12     Subject: Re:To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
Anonymous wrote:I get so ticked off for the kids who are in the racial minority that people like OP (and like the Rosenfelds) think they are undeserving of the spots at these programs. What century is this?


Well, quite honestly until they remove these kinds preferences based on race in other admission programs you're going to continue to see this kind of second guessing.
Anonymous
Post 05/23/2013 22:25     Subject: Re:To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
I get so ticked off for the kids who are in the racial minority that people like OP (and like the Rosenfelds) think they are undeserving of the spots at these programs. What century is this?
Anonymous
Post 05/23/2013 21:48     Subject: Re:To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
Anonymous wrote:This is so silly.... While on average some groups perform better than others. There is plenty of overlap, wide range of talent levels and grouping is sometimes arbitrary. There ARE some people, many people in every " category" smarter than all of us here...
Anonymous
Post 05/23/2013 21:47     Subject: Re:To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
This is so silly.... While on average some groups perform better than others. There is plenty of overlap, wide range of talent levels and grouping is sometimes arbitrary. There is some people, many people in every " category" smarter than all of us here...
Anonymous
Post 05/23/2013 21:40     Subject: To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This appears to be a very old lawsuit about this issue:
http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/Unpublished/011583.U.pdf

Appeal affirming dismissal.


Can you provide the title of this case? I can't seem to access via the link.


Try searching Ethan Rosenfeld v. MCPS
Anonymous
Post 05/23/2013 20:17     Subject: To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
Anonymous wrote:This appears to be a very old lawsuit about this issue:
http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/Unpublished/011583.U.pdf

Appeal affirming dismissal.


Can you provide the title of this case? I can't seem to access via the link.
Anonymous
Post 05/23/2013 09:33     Subject: To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
But, median also means half the kids have scores below what's on the paper.....
Anonymous
Post 05/23/2013 09:17     Subject: To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
Anonymous wrote:Does anyone here actually have racial demographic info on the HCG centers?


I don't but at our HGC, the vast majority are Asian and white. I believe the question came up at the Eastern MS magnet info meeting and if I remember correctly, we were told that race and gender were not taken into consideration.

At the ES level, the decision is based on test scores and teacher recs. They want students who are bright AND whose needs are not currently served in their home school AND who can handle the work load. In other words, they are looking for more than high test scores. Also remember the test scores reported in the acceptance letters are the MEDIAN scores which means that half of the accepted students scored higher than the score reported.

At the MS level, the decision is based on test scores, student application essays, teacher recs and the student's grades. They pick 100 students from around 900 applicants. Since the MS application process is so involved and time consuming, typically only highly motivated and/or highly qualified students apply. With such a large applicant pool, I can imagine that some students with high test scores might still not be accepted.
Anonymous
Post 05/23/2013 02:55     Subject: To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
This appears to be a very old lawsuit about this issue:
http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/Unpublished/011583.U.pdf

Appeal affirming dismissal.
Anonymous
Post 05/20/2013 19:41     Subject: To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For what it's worth, my understanding is the MCPS does use FARMS status and FARMS students tend to be mostly black or Hispanic. That seems reasonable given that there are tons of tests that show bias towards students with lower incomes or of certain races.


I think you may be confusing two different types of magnet programs. The "choice" magnet programs in Middle School like Loiderman, Argyle, etc. do take FARMS into account. I believe that the different HS programs in the Down County Consortium also take FARMS rates into account when placing kids at different high school programs (but I'm not sure about that).

The "competitive" magnets do not take FARMS into account as part of the application. They are supposed to be merit-based. I believe that the choice to admit a child is based largely on the HGC test scores. If a child scored above the mean on all three segments and didn't get admitted, I would file an appeal and ask to see the data. Other data points include -- whether the child is in above grade level instruction in reading and math, the parent recommendation and the teacher recommendation. As a parent, you have a right under FERPA to view all these pieces of data as well as any other records related to the HGC admission process. You may have to come to a central location to view and you may have to sign a non-disclosure form, but you have a right to see it. Anecdotally, I have heard of a poor teacher recommendation sinking an applicant with good test scores, but that's only anecdotal.

Race is never a permitted consideration for admission to any programs. This was decided a long time ago in the Eisenstat case. Nonetheless, the way the HGC system is set up, somewhat accounts for race by placing different HGCs by high school cluster. Since the racial makeup of neighborhood high schools varies, the racial make up of the HGCs will likely vary somewhat also. This is speculative on my part though, because I am not aware of any data released by MCPS to show the racial makeup of the HGCs. Actually, there's no data released about successful applicants other than what comes in your decision letter. This could all be released if an enterprising parent made a FOIA request.

Having said that, I have no doubt that some racial groups are over-represented in the HGC and some under-represented when compared to overall population rates. To me, that is a serious problem. I had a child in an HGC and there were only a few non-white kids in the class. I don't consider that a healthy educational environment and such lack of diversity is not conducive the best learning, IMO. This is probably due to a complicated mixture of racism and differential preparation. Even though the county tries to "go by the numbers" there are still parts of the HGC application packet that are going to result in under-representation of minorities. For example, I'm pretty sure that a non-native English speaker will not do as well as a native English speaker on the language testing. The parent and teacher questionnaires are subject to racial and cultural bias as well.


+1 Thanks for this post.
Anonymous
Post 05/20/2013 13:30     Subject: To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
Does anyone here actually have racial demographic info on the HCG centers?
Anonymous
Post 05/20/2013 12:17     Subject: To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
Anonymous wrote:For what it's worth, my understanding is the MCPS does use FARMS status and FARMS students tend to be mostly black or Hispanic. That seems reasonable given that there are tons of tests that show bias towards students with lower incomes or of certain races.


I think you may be confusing two different types of magnet programs. The "choice" magnet programs in Middle School like Loiderman, Argyle, etc. do take FARMS into account. I believe that the different HS programs in the Down County Consortium also take FARMS rates into account when placing kids at different high school programs (but I'm not sure about that).

The "competitive" magnets do not take FARMS into account as part of the application. They are supposed to be merit-based. I believe that the choice to admit a child is based largely on the HGC test scores. If a child scored above the mean on all three segments and didn't get admitted, I would file an appeal and ask to see the data. Other data points include -- whether the child is in above grade level instruction in reading and math, the parent recommendation and the teacher recommendation. As a parent, you have a right under FERPA to view all these pieces of data as well as any other records related to the HGC admission process. You may have to come to a central location to view and you may have to sign a non-disclosure form, but you have a right to see it. Anecdotally, I have heard of a poor teacher recommendation sinking an applicant with good test scores, but that's only anecdotal.

Race is never a permitted consideration for admission to any programs. This was decided a long time ago in the Eisenstat case. Nonetheless, the way the HGC system is set up, somewhat accounts for race by placing different HGCs by high school cluster. Since the racial makeup of neighborhood high schools varies, the racial make up of the HGCs will likely vary somewhat also. This is speculative on my part though, because I am not aware of any data released by MCPS to show the racial makeup of the HGCs. Actually, there's no data released about successful applicants other than what comes in your decision letter. This could all be released if an enterprising parent made a FOIA request.

Having said that, I have no doubt that some racial groups are over-represented in the HGC and some under-represented when compared to overall population rates. To me, that is a serious problem. I had a child in an HGC and there were only a few non-white kids in the class. I don't consider that a healthy educational environment and such lack of diversity is not conducive the best learning, IMO. This is probably due to a complicated mixture of racism and differential preparation. Even though the county tries to "go by the numbers" there are still parts of the HGC application packet that are going to result in under-representation of minorities. For example, I'm pretty sure that a non-native English speaker will not do as well as a native English speaker on the language testing. The parent and teacher questionnaires are subject to racial and cultural bias as well.
Anonymous
Post 05/20/2013 09:59     Subject: To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
Correction: Indian is Asian. Sorry
Anonymous
Post 05/20/2013 09:57     Subject: To what extent is race a factor in HGC admissions?
A large majority of the students at our center are Asian and Indian. There are some Caucasian of different ethnic backgrounds. AA and hispanic students are definitely minorities.