Anonymous
03/26/2013 15:51
Subject: Re:Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm Jewish and I can't understand why this would bother you, OP. Honestly.
Why do I care? Someone put it recently in a New Yorker article about Bar Mitzvahs for Evangelical Christian teenagers like this (paraphrasing) -- there's a difference between building bridges between religions to improve cultural understanding, and building bridges so you can run across to the other side and grab goodies and run back. If it's to increase cultural understanding, great.
I don't follow the goodies-grabbing analogy. It's not like there is a limited number of seders that can be held in the world on any given night, and if the Christians take them, there won't be any left for the Jews.
My DH was raised in a conservative Jewish household that did not believe in giving gifts for Hanukkah. He thinks the reform Jews grabbed those Christian goodies and ran back to their side.
Anonymous
03/26/2013 15:49
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Anonymous wrote:Another Jewish poster here. I do not like the idea of churches doing Seders but I think it's fine if they do an interfaith service with a rabbi. If you are truly interested in this Jewish tradition, most synagogues have community Seders and you would be welcome to attend. Or, mention your interest to your minister or priest and and maybe he can help organize something with a synagogue. It is not respectful of Jewish traditions for Christians to hold a seder without having Jews involved.
And to add to the chorus earlier, I always invite non Jews to my Seders. I think it's a great opportunity to share Jewish traditions with others whose only knowledge of Judaism may be that we don't celebrate Christmas.
What you and the other PP are missing is that the Christian ritual of communion has a direct historical link to the Last Supper (which was, yes, a Jewish seder) during which the commandment was passed down by Jesus himself. Or perhaps you did not know that? So the point is that the practice of recreating a "seder" is not primarily an attempt to understand the Jewish religion per se but to re-enact the Last Supper. I have said before and I'll say again that the most meaningful way to do this is an interfaith service with a rabbi, but engaging in this practice without a rabbi is not an attempt to offend Jews, co-opt Judaism, or make Passover about Jesus. Trust me, Christians are not looking to celebrate Passover. It has nothing to do with Christianity or with Easter other than being in close proximity on the calendar. The ONLY link between Easter and Judaism is the historical basis of the Last Supper.
Anonymous
03/26/2013 15:44
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Jewish poster here: I haven't seen the signs the OP is speaking about but it would bother me as well. I do not believe a non-Jew can cook and run a seder as well as a Jewish person can. However, for me, a huge part of Passover is the cultural aspect of it, which probably adds to my first-stated belief. I'm 38. I've been to over 70 seders in my life. It's about family and culture and rituals and religion. To make it about Jesus is preposterous and insulting. Passover is NOT about Jesus. It may have been his last supper, but Passover was not because of or about him. That's why I find it insulting to me, as a Jewish person, for a church to have a seder.
If you are not Jewish and want to learn about Passover, about a seder, then come to my seder. Get yourself invited to a real seder, one run by a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, by someone who's been doing this for decades, who has learned how to run a seder from his and her parents.
Well, I have no idea what to make of this. Other than so much for interfaith understanding. The purpose of a church holding a Seder as a part of Holy Week is not to "cook and run a Seder as well as a Jewish person can." You have entirely missed the point. I'm really sorry you feel this way, but the practice is in no way intended to "insult" you as a Jewish person or any other Jewish person. I actually find it kind of insulting as a Christian that you have misconstrued the motivation behind this as "making it about Jesus." No one is trying to make the Jewish celebration of Passover about Jesus. We are trying to experience what Jesus would have experienced in the Last Supper, because he was, in fact, a Jew, whether you believe he is the Messiah or not. The Christian religion has roots in Judaism through Jesus and the disciples. So we are not trying to put on some Jewish cloak for a day and pretend we are Jews. We are, however, honoring the man we believe to be the Messiah by attempting to experience a part of his life through a specific meal (the Last Supper) that holds an extreme amount of significance for Christians. Plus, it's pretty flip to say that every Christian should just "get themselves invited to a real Seder," especially since your attitude is so welcoming (sarcasm alert). How exactly would a Christian invite themselves to your family's Seder? I can just imagine what kind of reception they would receive.
We have at least one person or family who's not Jewish at our seders every year. All it takes is saying to DH or me, "What happens at a seder?" or "Sounds like a lot of work but fun," and then DH and will just ask, "Want to come?" Boom, that easy. Last night we had my third cousin and her (non-Jewish) boyfriend at our seder. Jesus may have been Jewish, but YOU are not. So you are NOT going to experience what Jesus experienced at ALL. Also, you're upset that I'm saying I dislike you making it all about Jesus, but then later you say you're trying to experience HIS life through Passover. Thus, your focus on Passover revolves around how JESUS would have experienced it, and I'm saying that Passover is not about Jesus.
Wrong. I am not trying to experience Jesus' life through Passover. I am trying to experience one aspect of what he experienced through the recreation of a meal during which he handed down a commandment (do this in memory of me) that is recreated in my church every weekend. I am sorry if you are offended by the fact that the Christian communion ritual has a direct historical link to Judaism My understanding is that Passover is more than just a Seder, yes? So you are blowing up the meaning of the whole thing into "Christians are trying to takeover Passover and thus perhaps my whole religion!!!!!" Sorry, you are making a mountain out of a molehill IMO. I'm not saying Passover is about Jesus and I challenge you to quote where I did.
Anonymous
03/26/2013 15:43
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Another Jewish poster here. I do not like the idea of churches doing Seders but I think it's fine if they do an interfaith service with a rabbi. If you are truly interested in this Jewish tradition, most synagogues have community Seders and you would be welcome to attend. Or, mention your interest to your minister or priest and and maybe he can help organize something with a synagogue. It is not respectful of Jewish traditions for Christians to hold a seder without having Jews involved.
And to add to the chorus earlier, I always invite non Jews to my Seders. I think it's a great opportunity to share Jewish traditions with others whose only knowledge of Judaism may be that we don't celebrate Christmas.
And to add to the chorus earlier, I always invite non Jews to my Seders. I think it's a great opportunity to share Jewish traditions with others whose only knowledge of Judaism may be that we don't celebrate Christmas.
Anonymous
03/26/2013 15:38
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Jewish poster here: I haven't seen the signs the OP is speaking about but it would bother me as well. I do not believe a non-Jew can cook and run a seder as well as a Jewish person can. However, for me, a huge part of Passover is the cultural aspect of it, which probably adds to my first-stated belief. I'm 38. I've been to over 70 seders in my life. It's about family and culture and rituals and religion. To make it about Jesus is preposterous and insulting. Passover is NOT about Jesus. It may have been his last supper, but Passover was not because of or about him. That's why I find it insulting to me, as a Jewish person, for a church to have a seder.
If you are not Jewish and want to learn about Passover, about a seder, then come to my seder. Get yourself invited to a real seder, one run by a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, by someone who's been doing this for decades, who has learned how to run a seder from his and her parents.
Well, I have no idea what to make of this. Other than so much for interfaith understanding. The purpose of a church holding a Seder as a part of Holy Week is not to "cook and run a Seder as well as a Jewish person can." You have entirely missed the point. I'm really sorry you feel this way, but the practice is in no way intended to "insult" you as a Jewish person or any other Jewish person. I actually find it kind of insulting as a Christian that you have misconstrued the motivation behind this as "making it about Jesus." No one is trying to make the Jewish celebration of Passover about Jesus. We are trying to experience what Jesus would have experienced in the Last Supper, because he was, in fact, a Jew, whether you believe he is the Messiah or not. The Christian religion has roots in Judaism through Jesus and the disciples. So we are not trying to put on some Jewish cloak for a day and pretend we are Jews. We are, however, honoring the man we believe to be the Messiah by attempting to experience a part of his life through a specific meal (the Last Supper) that holds an extreme amount of significance for Christians. Plus, it's pretty flip to say that every Christian should just "get themselves invited to a real Seder," especially since your attitude is so welcoming (sarcasm alert). How exactly would a Christian invite themselves to your family's Seder? I can just imagine what kind of reception they would receive.
We have at least one person or family who's not Jewish at our seders every year. All it takes is saying to DH or me, "What happens at a seder?" or "Sounds like a lot of work but fun," and then DH and will just ask, "Want to come?" Boom, that easy. Last night we had my third cousin and her (non-Jewish) boyfriend at our seder. Jesus may have been Jewish, but YOU are not. So you are NOT going to experience what Jesus experienced at ALL. Also, you're upset that I'm saying I dislike you making it all about Jesus, but then later you say you're trying to experience HIS life through Passover. Thus, your focus on Passover revolves around how JESUS would have experienced it, and I'm saying that Passover is not about Jesus.
Anonymous
03/26/2013 15:30
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Anonymous wrote:Jewish poster here: I haven't seen the signs the OP is speaking about but it would bother me as well. I do not believe a non-Jew can cook and run a seder as well as a Jewish person can. However, for me, a huge part of Passover is the cultural aspect of it, which probably adds to my first-stated belief. I'm 38. I've been to over 70 seders in my life. It's about family and culture and rituals and religion. To make it about Jesus is preposterous and insulting. Passover is NOT about Jesus. It may have been his last supper, but Passover was not because of or about him. That's why I find it insulting to me, as a Jewish person, for a church to have a seder.
If you are not Jewish and want to learn about Passover, about a seder, then come to my seder. Get yourself invited to a real seder, one run by a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, by someone who's been doing this for decades, who has learned how to run a seder from his and her parents.
Well, I have no idea what to make of this. Other than so much for interfaith understanding. The purpose of a church holding a Seder as a part of Holy Week is not to "cook and run a Seder as well as a Jewish person can." You have entirely missed the point. I'm really sorry you feel this way, but the practice is in no way intended to "insult" you as a Jewish person or any other Jewish person. I actually find it kind of insulting as a Christian that you have misconstrued the motivation behind this as "making it about Jesus." No one is trying to make the Jewish celebration of Passover about Jesus. We are trying to experience what Jesus would have experienced in the Last Supper, because he was, in fact, a Jew, whether you believe he is the Messiah or not. The Christian religion has roots in Judaism through Jesus and the disciples. So we are not trying to put on some Jewish cloak for a day and pretend we are Jews. We are, however, honoring the man we believe to be the Messiah by attempting to experience a part of his life through a specific meal (the Last Supper) that holds an extreme amount of significance for Christians. Plus, it's pretty flip to say that every Christian should just "get themselves invited to a real Seder," especially since your attitude is so welcoming (sarcasm alert). How exactly would a Christian invite themselves to your family's Seder? I can just imagine what kind of reception they would receive.
Anonymous
03/26/2013 14:09
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Jewish poster here: I haven't seen the signs the OP is speaking about but it would bother me as well. I do not believe a non-Jew can cook and run a seder as well as a Jewish person can. However, for me, a huge part of Passover is the cultural aspect of it, which probably adds to my first-stated belief. I'm 38. I've been to over 70 seders in my life. It's about family and culture and rituals and religion. To make it about Jesus is preposterous and insulting. Passover is NOT about Jesus. It may have been his last supper, but Passover was not because of or about him. That's why I find it insulting to me, as a Jewish person, for a church to have a seder.
If you are not Jewish and want to learn about Passover, about a seder, then come to my seder. Get yourself invited to a real seder, one run by a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, by someone who's been doing this for decades, who has learned how to run a seder from his and her parents.
If you are not Jewish and want to learn about Passover, about a seder, then come to my seder. Get yourself invited to a real seder, one run by a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, by someone who's been doing this for decades, who has learned how to run a seder from his and her parents.
Anonymous
03/26/2013 13:47
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm going to say that regardless of whether you agreed with the OP, and who cares at this point, there was entirely too much ganging up, piling on, and schooling of the OP going on in this thread. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
"Schooling?" I hope you don't think that answering the question that she asked with an explanation is "schooling." That's an unfair and ridiculous accusation when OP ASKED SOMEONE TO "TALK HER DOWN."
A thread shouldn't be about an OP. It should be about a topic. This is really needlessly confrontational. The expression "talk me down" is in common parlance and means "ease my anxiety" or "tell me I'm wrong."
And "icky" was OK too? You don't think that started the confrontation?
Anonymous
03/26/2013 13:46
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm going to say that regardless of whether you agreed with the OP, and who cares at this point, there was entirely too much ganging up, piling on, and schooling of the OP going on in this thread. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
"Schooling?" I hope you don't think that answering the question that she asked with an explanation is "schooling." That's an unfair and ridiculous accusation when OP ASKED SOMEONE TO "TALK HER DOWN."
A thread shouldn't be about an OP. It should be about a topic. This is really needlessly confrontational. The expression "talk me down" is in common parlance and means "ease my anxiety" or "tell me I'm wrong."
Some us did respond about the topic. I was the first to respond and I was not even remotely confrontational. Why can't she just ignore those who are being confrontational and engage with those of us who took the time to craft a thoughtful response to her question? I responded in good faith and I had some sincere questions for her. I was trying to engage in a respectful dialogue. By refusing to do that with me, I just assume that wasn't what she was looking for. And THAT offends me. Why start the thread if you don't want to engage? I mean, this is DCUM - of course you are going to get some snarky responses. You just ignore them and move on. You don't run from the discussion like a child.
This thread has me convinced that this Religion forum will be no better than the rest of DCUM. And that's unfortunate.
Anonymous
03/26/2013 13:29
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm going to say that regardless of whether you agreed with the OP, and who cares at this point, there was entirely too much ganging up, piling on, and schooling of the OP going on in this thread. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
"Schooling?" I hope you don't think that answering the question that she asked with an explanation is "schooling." That's an unfair and ridiculous accusation when OP ASKED SOMEONE TO "TALK HER DOWN."
A thread shouldn't be about an OP. It should be about a topic. This is really needlessly confrontational. The expression "talk me down" is in common parlance and means "ease my anxiety" or "tell me I'm wrong."
Anonymous
03/26/2013 12:57
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm going to say that regardless of whether you agreed with the OP, and who cares at this point, there was entirely too much ganging up, piling on, and schooling of the OP going on in this thread. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
"Schooling?" I hope you don't think that answering the question that she asked with an explanation is "schooling." That's an unfair and ridiculous accusation when OP ASKED SOMEONE TO "TALK HER DOWN."
+1. Several, not just one, of us took the time to try to give thoughtful answers. I'm the 3rd poster, at 9:36. I ignored OP's confrontational tone ("Really don't like seeing..." and "it just bugs me...") and did my best to respond thoughtfully. OP's only response has been a general condemnation of everyone here. I hope you don't think that calling someone else's faith icky and then, when she was called on it, lashing out indiscriminately, is acceptable behavior.
Anonymous
03/26/2013 12:31
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Anonymous wrote:I'm going to say that regardless of whether you agreed with the OP, and who cares at this point, there was entirely too much ganging up, piling on, and schooling of the OP going on in this thread. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
"Schooling?" I hope you don't think that answering the question that she asked with an explanation is "schooling." That's an unfair and ridiculous accusation when OP ASKED SOMEONE TO "TALK HER DOWN."
Anonymous
03/26/2013 12:30
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:By the way, the Catholic woman's responses were thoughtful and interesting. Thank you, and you alone, for a good and thoughtful thread.
OP, your participation in this thread seems to be minutes to taking (hostile) pot shots like this one. You've received several very thoughtful posts, not just one, yet you continue to call everyone else hostile. It's difficult to believe that you're looking to engage thoughtfully.
If you want to ask a thoughtful question, I'm sure several of us would be very happy to answer.
And OP was the person to introduce the word "icky" to the conversation. OP started the conversation on an extremely hostile note and then was butthurt when people fired back.
Anonymous
03/26/2013 12:27
Subject: Re:Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
Jesus was a Jew. His religious traditions were Jewish traditions. Christianity is an off-shoot of Judaism. How is participating in a Jewish practice "icky?" This doesn't get anywhere close to cultural appropriation beyond what is already present in Christianity. Christians study Hebrew and the Old Testament and make pilgrimages to Israel.
Is that you find Jews "icky" or is that you find Christians "icky?"
Is that you find Jews "icky" or is that you find Christians "icky?"
Anonymous
03/26/2013 12:18
Subject: Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders
I'm going to say that regardless of whether you agreed with the OP, and who cares at this point, there was entirely too much ganging up, piling on, and schooling of the OP going on in this thread. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.