[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Np here. All I can tell you is that I am a pathologically honest and risk averse attorney. I looked into this issue very carefully when I hired our cleaners and I concluded that they are not employees. I for one am not worried and I worry about this stuff far more than the average person. [/quote]

What's your take on the "people don't realize they have to pay payroll taxes on individual housecleaners" thread? For some person to post that kind of of subject line, it seems that she had a clear motive. A domestic payroll service company drumming up business, maybe?[/quote]

You don't need a payroll service, that would be crazy. I dont think anyone has suggested that. You file the household employee taxes with your personal taxes once a year. I create the W-2 on the IRS website. State unemployment taxes have to be done quarterly but again are electronic. All told each one of those things takes 5 minutes. [/quote]

This. I'm an attorney, reviewed the guidance and determined where our housekeeper came the same day every week and used our supplies she's a household employee.

On top of that, our paying payroll taxes and unemployment doesn't add much in the grand scheme but means she will receive better social security benefits when she retires and could receive unemployment should we no longer be able to employ her. She's been with us for years--it's the right thing to do.

As an aside, what's weird about the IRS guidance is that nannies are listed under household employees but "people providing child care services in your home" are listed as not household employees. How does that make any sense? [/quote]

But look at pub 926. It is not just whether they use your supplies, but whether they "offer services to the general public in an independent business." My cleaner, who probably cleans 20 other houses a week with her crew if not more, is offering services to the general public. The fact that I generally instruct her on what to do sometimes makes no difference. I am purchasing a service from her, so we can discuss and agree on the service. Eg if I tell the lawn care service where to mow, they are not therefor employees.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the end, it doesn't really matter what we all think. The only thing that matters is what the IRS agent conducting an audit thinks.

Well yes, obviously, but some of us find it quite disturbing that someone would randomly start a new thread with a misleading subject line regarding tax obligations. She is rather confident in her knowledge and in herself as an authority on domestic pay roll taxes, without the slightest indication of a desire to learn the accurate legal requirements. Misleading DCUM readers on such important legal matters should not be permitted, IMHO.

I think it is "one of us". What is your point? You disagree? Given the facts and circumstances in your particular case you don't think you have an employee?

Whether your cleaning person is an IC or an employee is a fact-specific detrmination you have to make on a case-by-case basis. It is not true that all housecleaners are employees. Nor is it true that all are ICs.

I suspect the OP of the other thread is either (i) someone who is a housecleaner or has a family member who is, or (ii) is someone who employs a housecleaner and is all up in arms because most of her housekeeper's other employers insist on treating her like an IC when she's not. As a PP pointed out, there are ramifications to that, including social security. Our housekeeper has the same situation and asked to work for us more days a week because she could not get anyone else to pay her legally besides us. Everybody else wanted to treat her like an IC and also pay her under the table and she is worried about her social security. We agreed to do it, by the way. She's been with us ten years.

If I am right that the OP of that thread is an employer, then I understand where she is coming from, but I myself have never gotten worked up enough about it to start a thread on DCUM. I figure that's those people's risk to run. We did the analysis of our relationship with our housekeeper and decided she was an employee. I have enough trouble minding my own stuff to go getting worked up about somebody else's stuff.

What I don't understand is the hysteria over "fear mongering". I think you've used it about 15 times now, maybe more, on at least two threads. People say all sorts of stuff that isn't legally true all the time. Should I go around accusing those who incorrectly state, for example, that it is illegal to refuse to hire a nanny because she's [fill in protected category] of "fear mongering"? This is exactly why you should NEVER take legal advice from DCUM.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Np here. All I can tell you is that I am a pathologically honest and risk averse attorney. I looked into this issue very carefully when I hired our cleaners and I concluded that they are not employees. I for one am not worried and I worry about this stuff far more than the average person.

This is me but I made the IC determination for our cleaning lady about 15 years ago (when we started paying nanny taxes). So I wondered if the law/guidance had changed regarding the once-a-week cleaning lady (who comes on the day she has free in her schedule and leaves when the house is clean).

Obviously, when she comes is mutually agreeable, as she certainly has no desire in cleaning your house when you might be hosting your monthly luncheon.

Anonymous wrote:Np here. All I can tell you is that I am a pathologically honest and risk averse attorney. I looked into this issue very carefully when I hired our cleaners and I concluded that they are not employees. I for one am not worried and I worry about this stuff far more than the average person.

This is me but I made the IC determination for our cleaning lady about 15 years ago (when we started paying nanny taxes). So I wondered if the law/guidance had changed regarding the once-a-week cleaning lady (who comes on the day she has free in her schedule and leaves when the house is clean).

It depends on the nature of the agreeement. An independent contractor is independent. One who provides the same service to the public and anyone can hire that person for the same services. In our case, we contacted the main person. She came to give a free estimate and provided us a printed list of the services that they provide. We asked if she did other tasks and she said she would for an additional fee. She reviewed the rooms and gave us a quote with and without the extra services. We do not have a fixed date. We make appointments. We either call and she tells us the days that she is free and we select one of those or when she comes for a cleaning, at the end, we can schedule a new date. She provides all supplies, employees as needed to complete the cleaning and we specifically do not dictate how she works. She does the tasks that she originally provided. We have no control over how she does the job or who she hires. We have a choice to not call her again or to call her again. We are clearly not her employer, but her customer.

If you have a cleaner who comes on a regular schedule, or that uses your household supplies, or that does the cleaning the way that you instruct (you provide instructions for how, when, what) then you have a household employee who comes during her "work shift" and performs tasks as you, her employer, instructs.

In either case, the person can be an individual who you pay directly, can have set herself up as an LLC or not, and can provide the same services to multiple employers. None of these have a bearing on whether the person is an independent contractor or not. The way the job is set up conveys whether your specific housekeeper is an employee or an independent contractor.

Anonymous wrote:In the end, it doesn't really matter what we all think. The only thing that matters is what the IRS agent conducting an audit thinks.

Well yes, obviously, but some of us find it quite disturbing that someone would randomly start a new thread with a misleading subject line regarding tax obligations. She is rather confident in her knowledge and in herself as an authority on domestic pay roll taxes, without the slightest indication of a desire to learn the accurate legal requirements. Misleading DCUM readers on such important legal matters should not be permitted, IMHO.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what we all think. The only thing that matters is what the IRS agent conducting an audit thinks.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Np here. All I can tell you is that I am a pathologically honest and risk averse attorney. I looked into this issue very carefully when I hired our cleaners and I concluded that they are not employees. I for one am not worried and I worry about this stuff far more than the average person.

What's your take on the "people don't realize they have to pay payroll taxes on individual housecleaners" thread? For some person to post that kind of of subject line, it seems that she had a clear motive. A domestic payroll service company drumming up business, maybe?

You don't need a payroll service, that would be crazy. I dont think anyone has suggested that. You file the household employee taxes with your personal taxes once a year. I create the W-2 on the IRS website. State unemployment taxes have to be done quarterly but again are electronic. All told each one of those things takes 5 minutes.

This. I'm an attorney, reviewed the guidance and determined where our housekeeper came the same day every week and used our supplies she's a household employee.

On top of that, our paying payroll taxes and unemployment doesn't add much in the grand scheme but means she will receive better social security benefits when she retires and could receive unemployment should we no longer be able to employ her. She's been with us for years--it's the right thing to do.

As an aside, what's weird about the IRS guidance is that nannies are listed under household employees but "people providing child care services in your home" are listed as not household employees. How does that make any sense?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Np here. All I can tell you is that I am a pathologically honest and risk averse attorney. I looked into this issue very carefully when I hired our cleaners and I concluded that they are not employees. I for one am not worried and I worry about this stuff far more than the average person.

What's your take on the "people don't realize they have to pay payroll taxes on individual housecleaners" thread? For some person to post that kind of of subject line, it seems that she had a clear motive. A domestic payroll service company drumming up business, maybe?

You don't need a payroll service, that would be crazy. I dont think anyone has suggested that. You file the household employee taxes with your personal taxes once a year. I create the W-2 on the IRS website. State unemployment taxes have to be done quarterly but again are electronic. All told each one of those things takes 5 minutes.

Anonymous wrote:Np here. All I can tell you is that I am a pathologically honest and risk averse attorney. I looked into this issue very carefully when I hired our cleaners and I concluded that they are not employees. I for one am not worried and I worry about this stuff far more than the average person.

What's your take on the "people don't realize they have to pay payroll taxes on individual housecleaners" thread? For some person to post that kind of of subject line, it seems that she had a clear motive. A domestic payroll service company drumming up business, maybe?

Np here. All I can tell you is that I am a pathologically honest and risk averse attorney. I looked into this issue very carefully when I hired our cleaners and I concluded that they are not employees. I for one am not worried and I worry about this stuff far more than the average person.

Please, let us all be as clear as possible here and avoid the fear mongering perpetuated in other threads.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The IRS is pretty clear in this publication: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p926.pdf

And it gives an example:

You made an agreement with John Peters
to care for your lawn. John runs a lawn care business and
offers his services to the general public. He provides his
own tools and supplies, and he hires and pays any help-
ers he needs. Neither John nor his helpers are your
household employees.

Therefore if a housecleaner comes to your home once in a while, with her own supplies, and even brings someone to help her - then she is NOT an employee.

Agreed. Thank you. There seems to be at least one person here with an invested interest in fear mongering. Don't know who else, besides domestic payroll companies, who would so fiercely promote misinformation. Their efforts seem to have backfired.

If your cleaning person has no other clients and you have her FT, then she is more likely to be your employee.
And of course you give her a benefits package.

Anonymous wrote:Our housecleaner comes when we are not at home, brings her own supplies and cleans as she wants. We only set her a goal: to make the house clean, and it's up to her how she achieves that. I have no time to buy the supplies for her and follow her around the house with instructions. I do genuinely believe that she is an IC.

However, I'm currently considered an IC myself and keep wondering how it is possible. I'm an accountant, and a consulting firm has hired me as an IC to serve their client. I always work from the client site, 40 hours a week, follow their established business hours, use their workspace, their laptop, have their e-mail address and do exactly what they tell me to do. How am I considered an IC and a cleaning lady who follows her own schedule, uses her supplies and helpers is an employee? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Your point is crystal clear. I think the OP on that other thread, that your cleaner has to be your employee, erroneously assumed that she could fear monger DCUM readers. It has all back fired on her.

Our housecleaner comes when we are not at home, brings her own supplies and cleans as she wants. We only set her a goal: to make the house clean, and it's up to her how she achieves that. I have no time to buy the supplies for her and follow her around the house with instructions. I do genuinely believe that she is an IC.

However, I'm currently considered an IC myself and keep wondering how it is possible. I'm an accountant, and a consulting firm has hired me as an IC to serve their client. I always work from the client site, 40 hours a week, follow their established business hours, use their workspace, their laptop, have their e-mail address and do exactly what they tell me to do. How am I considered an IC and a cleaning lady who follows her own schedule, uses her supplies and helpers is an employee? Shouldn't it be the other way around?