Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 14:12     Subject: calling women "ladies"
I cant tell how serious you are above? Or what your point is? We're too sensitive or you agree?

I know you're joking but I guess that's my point- why does it need to be pointed out what the gender/color/etc. is?

My bottom line: if it's in a situation where color/gender/etc. aren't relevant, but they used to be and sometimes still are relevant and are used as the basis for discriminationm, why on earth would we need to point it out?
Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 14:11     Subject: calling women "ladies"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I do think there is a difference when it's one man addressing a group of women. Just like "negro" was at one point neutral, it would be considered terribly racist today. Ladies isn't as extreme, but because we used to use "ladies" in the workplace to tell them to get coffee, dress cutely, and be a secretary only it might be time for a different term given the associations in that particular environment.



It would? Heavens me. It's just the Spanish word for "black." What are we supposed so say? Because "African-American" isn't always accurate, "nigger" is an epithet, "colored" just sounds prejudiced. How about, "you people?'


Are you pretending to be a Southern idiot or are you really that dumb?

KNEE-GROW is not the same as NAY-GRO so unless you are a Spanish speaker, what reason do you have to call people KNEE-GROWS?

If you are ESL then my apologies. ¡Orale, güey!
Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 14:11     Subject: calling women "ladies"
BTW, I prefer "ladies" because I find "women" to be aesthetically displeasing to say and hear. In the same way I avoid saying "banana" because I don't like the mouthfeel of saying it.

Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 14:11     Subject: calling women "ladies"
Ladies do not go and make coffee for their bosses. That is what the kitchen staff is for
Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 14:09     Subject: calling women "ladies"
"people" is speciesist, PP. I'm insulted!
Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 14:05     Subject: calling women "ladies"
Anonymous wrote:I do think there is a difference when it's one man addressing a group of women. Just like "negro" was at one point neutral, it would be considered terribly racist today. Ladies isn't as extreme, but because we used to use "ladies" in the workplace to tell them to get coffee, dress cutely, and be a secretary only it might be time for a different term given the associations in that particular environment.



It would? Heavens me. It's just the Spanish word for "black." What are we supposed so say? Because "African-American" isn't always accurate, "nigger" is an epithet, "colored" just sounds prejudiced. How about, "you people?'
Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 14:05     Subject: calling women "ladies"
Girls would be fighting words! I ain't your girl.
Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 14:02     Subject: calling women "ladies"
Look lady, you need to get off your high horse.
Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 14:01     Subject: calling women "ladies"
Anonymous wrote:Maybe you should address them as "Womyn".

I'd much rather be addressed as "Ladies", than other similar terms...


Or, "wimmin."

I agree. "Ladies" is better than "twatwaffles"
Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 13:59     Subject: Re:calling women "ladies"
Freeman wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Seriously? The same way you would address anyone, gender mixed or not:

in person, primarily as "You"

or in emails,
"Hello, everyone"
"Dear team"
"Hi"


Again, I was referring to a professional or formal situation, and none of the examples you give are what I would consider suitable openings for those types of communications. For instance, press announcements are often started with "Ladies and gentlemen of the press..." Graduation speeches start with "Respected professors, fellow students, ladies, and gentlemen..." For those types of communications, in which someone is addressing a group in a more formal environment, what is a suitable alternative?


I think the difference here is that you have "ladies and gentlemen" included- in other words, it's inclusive, and the point of those sorts of announcements is to BE inclusive and to acknowledge everyone in the crowd. The word itself in that case isn't the problem.

If it were a crowd of ladies, I guess it would depend on why they were assembled. A mother's crowd addressed by another mother? Ladies is fine. A group of women who are all friends in an email started with "Ladies" is actually nice. It's inclusive. In fact, it points out what brings them together in many cases.

A man addressing a group of ladies should probably be more sensitive- especially if there's a power differential- to not pointing out this difference because it's irrelevant.
Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 13:53     Subject: calling women "ladies"
Freeman wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP here- wow, I just posted this!

Ladies and gentlemen is completely fine. Female friends who address me and other female friends as "ladies" is totally fine.

I think the problem is that it's often used in situations where I see a tinge of sexism anyway. "Ladies, could you get us some coffee?" kind of things. Or maybe because I am aware of the sexism that more subtly takes place in the workplace I see no need to differentiate between me and the men I work with- yes, we're different because of our genders, but when you start treating me differently when asking me about work stuff I wonder what else is going on.



To be honest, it doesn't sound like the term "ladies" is what you really have the issue with, as much as other actions you've associated with it. If it was instead "Could you get us some coffee?" kinds of things, with no use of the term "ladies", would the situation be any more or less sexist? There's no need to treat genders differently, but I don't expect all forms of address to be completely gender neutral unless there is some other common title used to refer to a group.(Professor, Director, Doctor, Officer, etc.) If no suitable alternative exists, I don't think addressing a group of women as "Ladies" is inherently sexist. However, if I asked most of the ladies I know to get coffee when I was perfectly capable of getting it myself, they would tell me not only where I could find it, but also where I could shove it afterwards


NP here. I think the use of "ladies" in this context reinforces the sexism (as in that's what nice ladies would do - get the coffee).
Otherwise, I don't mind the term at all, and I consider myself a feminist. What I do mind is when men socially (i.e. not in a scientific context) say "the females" instead of "the women". I haven't met a man who did that who wasn't either stupid or a jerk.
Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 13:50     Subject: calling women "ladies"
I wonder what is appropriate say if a male manager/colleague is addressing a group that happens to be all women colleagues. Perhaps instead of "ladies" he could say "You all" or maybe include himself to avoid pinpointing names, and say "We should ..." ?
Freeman
Post 06/06/2012 13:49     Subject: Re:calling women "ladies"
Anonymous wrote:Seriously? The same way you would address anyone, gender mixed or not:

in person, primarily as "You"

or in emails,
"Hello, everyone"
"Dear team"
"Hi"


Again, I was referring to a professional or formal situation, and none of the examples you give are what I would consider suitable openings for those types of communications. For instance, press announcements are often started with "Ladies and gentlemen of the press..." Graduation speeches start with "Respected professors, fellow students, ladies, and gentlemen..." For those types of communications, in which someone is addressing a group in a more formal environment, what is a suitable alternative?
Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 13:47     Subject: Re:calling women "ladies"
Anonymous
Post 06/06/2012 13:47     Subject: calling women "ladies"
Freeman wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP here- wow, I just posted this!

Ladies and gentlemen is completely fine. Female friends who address me and other female friends as "ladies" is totally fine.

I think the problem is that it's often used in situations where I see a tinge of sexism anyway. "Ladies, could you get us some coffee?" kind of things. Or maybe because I am aware of the sexism that more subtly takes place in the workplace I see no need to differentiate between me and the men I work with- yes, we're different because of our genders, but when you start treating me differently when asking me about work stuff I wonder what else is going on.



To be honest, it doesn't sound like the term "ladies" is what you really have the issue with, as much as other actions you've associated with it. If it was instead "Could you get us some coffee?" kinds of things, with no use of the term "ladies", would the situation be any more or less sexist? There's no need to treat genders differently, but I don't expect all forms of address to be completely gender neutral unless there is some other common title used to refer to a group.(Professor, Director, Doctor, Officer, etc.) If no suitable alternative exists, I don't think addressing a group of women as "Ladies" is inherently sexist. However, if I asked most of the ladies I know to get coffee when I was perfectly capable of getting it myself, they would tell me not only where I could find it, but also where I could shove it afterwards


Yes, well, you are right- if someone said "Ladies, please get coffee" it wouldn't really be that different than "please get some coffee." But I'm not seeing it in as explicit situations as that, thank goodness - at least not usually. To me, it's more subtle.

Again, though- any advice on how to subtly point out that people are saying this term when it may not be/feel most appriopriate would be helpful. I keep copying my husband on the emails and saying "Jim or I would be happy to talk about the schools with you..." but he still gets erased from the emails, and "Ladies" still seems to be the term we're being greeted with.