Anonymous
05/11/2012 17:55
Subject: Re:I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
Anonymous wrote:For much of my family, who I have seen evolve since my own coming out almost 20 (!!) years ago- the evolution has been one of having me and my partner (now wife) in their lives. Watching us mature as a couple, decide to have kids, and on and on. When I told my uncle that I have no legal relationship to my sons he was LIVID. But it's true. I can't adopt in this state and we can't afford to move. When I explain that if one of us dies the other will have no rights to their social security, or retirement income, and in fact will have to pay estate taxes- he again gets so angry. This is not a liberal man, but he sees that this is unfair. I live in a state that's contituiton vaguely prohibits me from entering into "any contract that confers the rights of marriage." Does that mean that my power of attorney is invalid too?
Marriage does some big things- it solidifies a commitment between two adults and asks them to make some pretty important promises to one another. My wife and I didn't need the government for that- our family and friends were enough.
It also does myriad little things like making it easy to visit in the hospital or put someone on your insurance. It lets your spouse have access to accounts and treats your common property as such. It's those things I need. I have a marriage.
I finally get it, PP. I am pro-gay marriage, and always have been. But I have to admit that as a straight person I never really grasped what not being able to officially marry meant. I've always thought it is unfair, but that there are legal ways (adoption, power of attorney) etc. around some of the barriers to an unmarried gay couple living as a married couple. I finally understand- it's like adapting new "safety regulations" for abortion clinics that detail how wide the hallways must be. You've had a marriage all along- and denying you the little things isn't going to stop you. It's just offensive, discriminatory, and infuriating. And it's like people who are anti-gay marriage are sticking their heads in the sand pretending like this will stop you.
Anonymous
05/11/2012 08:54
Subject: I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP but I really appreciate the time some pps have taken to explain how their thinking evolved on gay marriage. Quite interesting. Thanks everyone.
This is OP. And, FWIW, I am a man. I just wanted to add my thanks to all of you. This thread has been so helpful. I am particularly moved by the personal stories you've shared. Thank you. And thank you for keeping this conversation civil, attacking each other never gets us anywhere. But again, thank you. I will keep reading and re-reading your thoughts. I feel good about my thought processing largely because of your feedback. Thanks!
Anonymous
05/11/2012 08:11
Subject: Re:I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
Uh - yeah. Wasn't that obvious? Gay marriags shodul be legal, and no different than hetero marriage.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:For me, it's pretty simple - my feelings about gay marriage are separate from my feelings about homosexuality (or rather, the reasons are different). Every one of the reasons I've heard against gay marriage are religion based - primarily christianity is quoted, but there are of course other religions that do not condone gay marriage. But I don't think the government should be in the business fo enshrining religious doctrine in secular law. And I particularly don't think that government should be in the business of determining which of its citizens are entitled to enter into civil contracts (because that's what marriage is, legally) based on religious doctrine. Finally, I don't think the government should determine which of its citizens are entitled to enter into contracts based on who they person sleeps with.
In a separate but related question, I don't have any problems with homosexuality. I'm not really sure why - maybe because I have gay friends who have children, or maybe there's some other reason that I don't know - but it makes no difference to me. I haven't always felt this way, but I can't pinpoint why or when I changed.
Sorry, that probably wasn't much help.
By your rational, then, gay marriage shouldn't be illegal either. Which, ahem, it is (mostly).
Anonymous
05/11/2012 07:59
Subject: Re:I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I had some friends who actually moved out of Virginia after this law was passed because one had a medical condition that could put her in the hospital and she feared that her partner would be prevented from making decisions about her health. Way to go, Virginia!Anonymous wrote:For much of my family, who I have seen evolve since my own coming out almost 20 (!!) years ago- the evolution has been one of having me and my partner (now wife) in their lives. Watching us mature as a couple, decide to have kids, and on and on. When I told my uncle that I have no legal relationship to my sons he was LIVID. But it's true. I can't adopt in this state and we can't afford to move. When I explain that if one of us dies the other will have no rights to their social security, or retirement income, and in fact will have to pay estate taxes- he again gets so angry. This is not a liberal man, but he sees that this is unfair. I live in a state that's contituiton vaguely prohibits me from entering into "any contract that confers the rights of marriage." Does that mean that my power of attorney is invalid too?
Marriage does some big things- it solidifies a commitment between two adults and asks them to make some pretty important promises to one another. My wife and I didn't need the government for that- our family and friends were enough.
It also does myriad little things like making it easy to visit in the hospital or put someone on your insurance. It lets your spouse have access to accounts and treats your common property as such. It's those things I need. I have a marriage.
But, hey, Virginia was quite happy to throw Mildred and Richard Loving into jail for daring to get married across racial lines back in the 60s. Why should we surprised at this?
Great sounds like social Darwinism have the undesirables move to Maryland, just like the illegals
Social stupidity caused Alabama to drive the illegals out. Then they found out the illegals were the best people they had, so they are trying to get them back.
Anonymous
05/11/2012 03:21
Subject: Re:I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
Anonymous wrote:For me, it's pretty simple - my feelings about gay marriage are separate from my feelings about homosexuality (or rather, the reasons are different). Every one of the reasons I've heard against gay marriage are religion based - primarily christianity is quoted, but there are of course other religions that do not condone gay marriage. But I don't think the government should be in the business fo enshrining religious doctrine in secular law. And I particularly don't think that government should be in the business of determining which of its citizens are entitled to enter into civil contracts (because that's what marriage is, legally) based on religious doctrine. Finally, I don't think the government should determine which of its citizens are entitled to enter into contracts based on who they person sleeps with.
In a separate but related question, I don't have any problems with homosexuality. I'm not really sure why - maybe because I have gay friends who have children, or maybe there's some other reason that I don't know - but it makes no difference to me. I haven't always felt this way, but I can't pinpoint why or when I changed.
Sorry, that probably wasn't much help.
By your rational, then, gay marriage shouldn't be illegal either. Which, ahem, it is (mostly).
Anonymous
05/11/2012 02:35
Subject: I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
I really do not understand this obsession with gay marriage, as if society would implode if it was allowed.
I think it should already be legal. It seems so backward thinking for this still to be a hot topic.
I think one way to quiet the furore over this is to separate legal partnerships from church sanctioned marriage. Call gay marriage a "partnership" and do the ceremony at City Hall.
Both should be given equal weight by the law but perhaps removing religion from this, might be the quickest way forward.
I think it should already be legal. It seems so backward thinking for this still to be a hot topic.
I think one way to quiet the furore over this is to separate legal partnerships from church sanctioned marriage. Call gay marriage a "partnership" and do the ceremony at City Hall.
Both should be given equal weight by the law but perhaps removing religion from this, might be the quickest way forward.
Anonymous
05/11/2012 01:13
Subject: Re:I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
Anonymous
05/11/2012 01:00
Subject: I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
Supply and demand.
Anonymous
05/10/2012 21:59
Subject: Re:I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
Anonymous
05/10/2012 21:48
Subject: Re:I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
Anonymous wrote:I had some friends who actually moved out of Virginia after this law was passed because one had a medical condition that could put her in the hospital and she feared that her partner would be prevented from making decisions about her health. Way to go, Virginia!Anonymous wrote:For much of my family, who I have seen evolve since my own coming out almost 20 (!!) years ago- the evolution has been one of having me and my partner (now wife) in their lives. Watching us mature as a couple, decide to have kids, and on and on. When I told my uncle that I have no legal relationship to my sons he was LIVID. But it's true. I can't adopt in this state and we can't afford to move. When I explain that if one of us dies the other will have no rights to their social security, or retirement income, and in fact will have to pay estate taxes- he again gets so angry. This is not a liberal man, but he sees that this is unfair. I live in a state that's contituiton vaguely prohibits me from entering into "any contract that confers the rights of marriage." Does that mean that my power of attorney is invalid too?
Marriage does some big things- it solidifies a commitment between two adults and asks them to make some pretty important promises to one another. My wife and I didn't need the government for that- our family and friends were enough.
It also does myriad little things like making it easy to visit in the hospital or put someone on your insurance. It lets your spouse have access to accounts and treats your common property as such. It's those things I need. I have a marriage.
But, hey, Virginia was quite happy to throw Mildred and Richard Loving into jail for daring to get married across racial lines back in the 60s. Why should we surprised at this?
Great sounds like social Darwinism have the undesirables move to Maryland, just like the illegals
Anonymous
05/10/2012 21:46
Subject: I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
Easy. Anybody with a bit of intellect who has studied our constitution and contemplated our separate of church and state. Will tell you marriage between two consenting a dults is lawful. The concept to limit it based on gender is stemming from religious one.
More importantly who is actually surprised about his stance on gay marriage? He's a smart man. I always thought he was for it and played the game to appease homophobs. Indeed his whole "separate but equal" civil union commitment concerned me. The Supreme Court has already spoken to that stuff.
I am totally and utterly ambivalent. I don't care what two grown adults do.
More importantly who is actually surprised about his stance on gay marriage? He's a smart man. I always thought he was for it and played the game to appease homophobs. Indeed his whole "separate but equal" civil union commitment concerned me. The Supreme Court has already spoken to that stuff.
I am totally and utterly ambivalent. I don't care what two grown adults do.
Anonymous
05/10/2012 20:27
Subject: Re:I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
I had some friends who actually moved out of Virginia after this law was passed because one had a medical condition that could put her in the hospital and she feared that her partner would be prevented from making decisions about her health. Way to go, Virginia!Anonymous wrote:For much of my family, who I have seen evolve since my own coming out almost 20 (!!) years ago- the evolution has been one of having me and my partner (now wife) in their lives. Watching us mature as a couple, decide to have kids, and on and on. When I told my uncle that I have no legal relationship to my sons he was LIVID. But it's true. I can't adopt in this state and we can't afford to move. When I explain that if one of us dies the other will have no rights to their social security, or retirement income, and in fact will have to pay estate taxes- he again gets so angry. This is not a liberal man, but he sees that this is unfair. I live in a state that's contituiton vaguely prohibits me from entering into "any contract that confers the rights of marriage." Does that mean that my power of attorney is invalid too?
Marriage does some big things- it solidifies a commitment between two adults and asks them to make some pretty important promises to one another. My wife and I didn't need the government for that- our family and friends were enough.
It also does myriad little things like making it easy to visit in the hospital or put someone on your insurance. It lets your spouse have access to accounts and treats your common property as such. It's those things I need. I have a marriage.
But, hey, Virginia was quite happy to throw Mildred and Richard Loving into jail for daring to get married across racial lines back in the 60s. Why should we surprised at this?
Anonymous
05/10/2012 19:27
Subject: Re:I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
For much of my family, who I have seen evolve since my own coming out almost 20 (!!) years ago- the evolution has been one of having me and my partner (now wife) in their lives. Watching us mature as a couple, decide to have kids, and on and on. When I told my uncle that I have no legal relationship to my sons he was LIVID. But it's true. I can't adopt in this state and we can't afford to move. When I explain that if one of us dies the other will have no rights to their social security, or retirement income, and in fact will have to pay estate taxes- he again gets so angry. This is not a liberal man, but he sees that this is unfair. I live in a state that's contituiton vaguely prohibits me from entering into "any contract that confers the rights of marriage." Does that mean that my power of attorney is invalid too?
Marriage does some big things- it solidifies a commitment between two adults and asks them to make some pretty important promises to one another. My wife and I didn't need the government for that- our family and friends were enough.
It also does myriad little things like making it easy to visit in the hospital or put someone on your insurance. It lets your spouse have access to accounts and treats your common property as such. It's those things I need. I have a marriage.
Marriage does some big things- it solidifies a commitment between two adults and asks them to make some pretty important promises to one another. My wife and I didn't need the government for that- our family and friends were enough.
It also does myriad little things like making it easy to visit in the hospital or put someone on your insurance. It lets your spouse have access to accounts and treats your common property as such. It's those things I need. I have a marriage.
Anonymous
05/10/2012 18:51
Subject: I used to find comfort in the President’s “evolving” position. Now, I can’t…
I think the reason that you found "comfort" in Obama's "evolving" position is that it made you feel like you could be a good, educated, liberal person, yet still hold a discriminatory view against gay marriage. I think that deep down, you know that it's not right to block gay marriage, and yet on some instinctual level, you're still repelled by it. And that's ok -- society has ingrained a reaction of disgust at homosexuality, it's not your fault (especially if you are a man, where issues of "manliness" are so emphasized). What you need to consider is whether your instinctive feeling of disgust is a valid basis upon which to make legal standards, such as marriage. I mean, I feel disgust when I see a terribly deformed person, or a reallly old person, but that doesn't mean I want them locked up. See what I mean?