OP here. Thank you vividjen. I've since changed my parenting style with DS. I don't use labels anymore and I don't punish by denying anything that would be soothing or comforting to him. DH and I are getting parenting guidance from the psychiatrist. It's been helpful.

I will look into intuniv also.

Good luck to you.

Hi
My older son has lied since he was little. He has ADHD and memory issues.
when my son was just on vyvanse, he was unable to control his impulsivity. He was extremely frustrated with himself and would sit on the stairs with his head in his hands moaning about how he just couldn't control himself.
When the doctor put him on INTUNIV, in addition to vyvanse it got a lot better. Now at 12, he is only on Intuniv. You may want to look into it.
As a side note, I started using the word "fib" for harmless tale-telling. It made our discussions about the stories less confrontational.

Anonymous wrote:Yes, apparently he and another child had a stash location where they kept their things...it was hidden but in the classroom.

I'd make sure that he and that child are separated next year.

What does the school recommend? I assume that there has been a meeting with the principal and counselor/psychologist since the suspension?

If the school has a social skills or friendship group I'd get him in it, he may be going along with the other kid in part out of trying to have a buddy. Or he may be the sidekick of a more manipulative kid. How were they even using the stuff if it was kept at school?

Sorry OP, it sounds tough.

I wouldn't be so focused on empathy, that is going to take a while to really develop even in a nonsn kid. Most kids behave because they are afraid of getting in trouble. IMHO you need a really good behavior plan developed with someone who works with kids with ADHD. I'd work there first.

How is he getting access to all of this stuff? I think there is way more to the backstory than your son.

OP here. I wonder if the lying and stealing has to do with an underdeveloped conscience, sort of a under developed sense of empathy. I see a psychiatrist because I am so stressed out about my DS. My own psychiatrist said there is a condition of lack or compromised sense of empathy. He said it is not psychosis, it is not sociopathy, and it is not ASD either. It is simply a condition of a compromised sense of empathy.

Maybe the stealing and lying stems from not feeling the loss of the victim she lied or stole from.

My psychiatrist said it's treatable if treatment starts early.

Dear OP.
I feel your distress. Our daughter, 11, sounds so much like your son. The lying and stealing has been going on for approx 3 years. She has been in weekly therapy for 2.5 years and sees a child psychiatrist for a Ritalin Rx quarterly. The Ritalin has helped the impulse control and the stealing has subsided but the lying is still daily. She lies to everyone, teachers, friends, therapists. Basically, she does whatever the heck she wants to do, even though she knows it is wrong. She isn't mean or hurtful, she just does what she wants and if she doesn't feel like doing something she is supposed to do, she doesn't do it. She is a headache for teachers and she is never invited to playdates or sleepovers because other parents know her MO. We have tried everything in the book. I am ashamed to admit that after 2 years with no improvement, we've even spanked her as a last resort in the hopes that it would shake her into realising how her choices affect others. We are at our witts end as it has been so long without a whole lot of improvement. Every day it is something. Every single day. We try not to sweat the small stuff but 90% of her choices must be addressed.

She has been suspended from school once for a day for stealing and lying about it. I was relieved at the time, thinking it would embarrass her into improvement, but she continues with her stubborn ways. She has written apology notes to all of her teachers and she knows lying and being sneaky is wrong but it continues.

Her daily lies and choices make it hard to ever have a nice, family day because we are always addressing something. It isn't fair to any of us. We feel like crappy parents. Our other kids are really good kids. We are totally stumped. It isn't easy.

I wish I had a solution to share. Just know you have company in your boat. Best to you.

Yes, apparently he and another child had a stash location where they kept their things...it was hidden but in the classroom.

Sorry to hear that, OP. Was your child keeping the gaming device at school? I'm surprised no one noticed he had it until now.

Sorry, OP. I know this must be so hard on you.

OP here. I have a sobering update. Today DS was suspended from school because he was caught with another child's gaming device. He told the principal he stole it over a month ago. Principal confirmed this with the student who it was stolen from. Principal said that since this was his third offense, he will likely be suspended for the remainder of the week too (they will call to talk to me and DH tomorrow they said).

I am heartbroken. I wish somebody could help him to stop. I worry he may be expelled if he keeps this up.

Anonymous wrote:Empathy and conscience are not fully developed in any eight year old. Your expectations may be too high. Particularly if there is a new sibling in the family.

ITA. I was the lying, stealing 4 yr old poster who is now an attorney. I stopped lying and stealing by the time I was 10 simply due to maturity and not some "come to Jesus" moment. There's a reason most children cannot be held legally liable for anything. If I were you, I would be careful not to label an 8 yr old a "problem child" or a potential sociopath: It's not developmentally appropriate for children to have a moral conscience or be socialized - that's why they're children.

Empathy and conscience are not fully developed in any eight year old. Your expectations may be too high. Particularly if there is a new sibling in the family.

OP here. I honestly don't think he has any desire to inflict injury. I would have seen that in him by now. He's very non aggressive. He has never been aggressive with peers. The worst he's ever done at home before this is throw a toy across a room when he was mad at us once.

This morning when the baby was crying he ran over to her and began caressing her head. Then he put a pacifier in her mouth. He asked if he could hold her also. So I honestly don't see any desire to inflict injury or pain. What I see is strong sensory cravings though. But rarely has it ever resulted in injury.

When DS realizes he's actually inflicted pain he seems shocked. He sometimes will cover his face with his hands as if ashamed. But in the moment he seems to have no ability to predict how his actions can hurt sometimes.

But with stealing and lying he doesn't feel as much remorse. He says he knows its wrong but that the items he takes are replaceable. He says he can replace them using the money his grandparents give him on his birthdays. Or when he steals he sometimes quickly forgets the impact its had on the victim.

Update - I've instituted the allowance and so far he's thrilled with the new idea. I hope it works.

Meanwhile I would love some ideas as to how to help him be more empathetic.

I don't know if I agree with your uncle. My DS once very impulsively did something that could have hurt an animal and felt incredible remorse afterwards. I sense thats the issue thats troubling you the most, that your DS can inflict pain and not care. Thats not a sensory seeking issue and I suspect your uncle is trying to reassure you.