Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to share my thoughts about the concept of daycare in general. I am wondering if anyone agrees with how I feel. It saddens me that so many of us put our kids in daycare. Daycare was my plan when I got pregnant with my first, but after a few weeks of it, I realized that I wanted to be the one raising DC and I quit my job. I am lucky that we were able to afford to get by on just DH's income. I understand that, in this country (especially in the DC area, and other metropolitan areas like it), both parents often have to work in order to be able to support their children. I'm not trying to insult any families that are doing that. My comments are more about the way we're living collectively in this country, where parents find it necessary to outsource the important task of raising their children to person or persons they barely know. Is daycare a common thing in other countries, I wonder (e.g., the Scandinavian countries, where standards of living and quality of life are reported to be so high?) It just seems so unnatural to me...the idea of having people we don't know that well spend more waking hours with our little ones than we do. Sometimes I wonder if it has something to do with the general degeneration of our society (in my opinion). Thanks for listening.

You make me sad....and MAD!!!
how dare you say in one post that you are not trying to insult families that put their kid in daycare and in the same paragraph make comments like:
"It saddens me that so many of us put our kids in daycare"
"I wanted to be the one raising DC"
"parents find it necessary to outsource the important task of raising their children to people they barely know"

Are you so ignorant that you don't see how insulting that is to those of us that put our kid in daycare?
To say to me (yes, ME, who has her kid in daycare) that I'm outsourcing raising my kid is not only insulting it's ignorant and narrow-minded. Not to mention hurtful.

how about I'm broadening my kid's life? I'm finding the best people to surround my kid with? how about, my strengths are not sitting around singing "wheels on the bus," and making crafts but instead are finding the best and the brightest to raise my child the best I know how?

People like you are the reasons SAHMs have such a bad reputation. You're sitting in your house, alone, with an infant, not recognizing that you might not be choosing what's best for your kid, but rather what's best for you. Why not come back to us when your kid is 4, scared to be around anyone else but you, can't read, and doesn't know how to use scissors because he or she has never made a craft before. Then we can say how isolating your child from the world saddens US!!!

Okay...this is me again. Everyone is right and I am sorry for spewing essentially the same thing back at OP that I felt she was spewing at my choice. I know many kids from SAH parents and WOH parents who are doing fine. I just got so mad and upset that this shit is coming up AGAIN. I am so tired of feeling like I have to defend my life to someone. It's like every time there's a new mother with a newborn, I have to go through this - I have to prove once again that my kid isn't going to end up sad and lonely and hurt and unloved because I "outsource" raising my kid. And yes, i guess I'm overreacting. So, my apologies to all the SAHMs that I offended - except to OP -

OP, what you really mean to say is "I can't believe everyone didn't make the same choice I made. The decline of our country!"
It's an incredibly rude post you posted, and yes, to the PP who said maybe you're defensive because you work out of the home. Yes, I work out of the home, and sometimes I do in fact feel guilty about that. But for all of the reasons stated above, and probably others, I chose to work instead of being a stay at home mom. That doesn't mean that choice is always an easy one, and that it doesn't differ day to day. And to read a post by someone like you is just so incredibly hurtful and really, what does it matter to you one way or the other how I chose to raise my daughter? No one owes you an explanation, and we certainly don't owe it to you in the spirit of defending ourselves as good parents who care about our children.

OP, you may not intend to, but you come off as very insular, condescending and judgmental. If you truly intended this to be just "food for thought" and open, non-judgmental discussion, then you really need to improve your communication skills because of the way you slant so many statements "outsource the important task of raising children", "person or persons they barely know", "it just seems to unnatural to me" "people we don't know that well spending more waking hours with our little ones than we do" "general degeneration of our society". You really think that these are not designed to antagonize WOHP?

When we opted to continue both of our jobs (which for many reasons, was the only option for our family), we spent A LOT of time looking into daycares. Of the programs that we chose, we chose the one that fit the most values that we ourselves wanted in childcare. I have to say that from the three months I was on paternity leave, I know for a fact that our daycare providers provided a significantly more interactive experience for our twins that I could at home. While I was at home, it was just one of me for my twins. In addition, I also had housework, cooking and household chores that had to be accomplished. When we work, I can afford to hire a housekeeper to come in and do some of that housekeeping. I also can better afford to get takeout more. While it isn't all the time, I can do it more often than if we were only living on one salary. At least now, it's an option. Now, there are four children for two daycare teachers that get undivided attention throughout the day. I did not have the leisure to provide them nearly as interactive a day. The teachers do not have to do these additional chores while caring for my children. I also know that while there are many aspects of parenting that I am good at, I have not created a structured curriculum based on their age to teach them. One that takes into account a background in childhood education and focuses on those things that are age-specific for my children. Yes, I could research this and recreate the wheel. Instead, we selected a program where every room has at least one if not two teachers with a background in early child education. The program is NAEYC certified, so I trust the standards that are used in this facility. To me, this was the effect of a good private school vs homeschooling my children. While there may be some positives to one over the other, I am satisfied with my choices and think that this is a good fit for my children and our family.

And I have to say that my children still know and bond with me even more than they do with their teachers. They recognize where home and family are. They know that different teachers will come and go, but the parents are there. We still teach them our family values and our standards. Just as children are more adept at learning languages than adults, children easily learn what are family rules, what are home rules and what are school rules. If something goes wrong and teachers and parents are there, the children still run to parents for consolation and care. I believe that your children are better able to discern the value of learning from school vs learning from parents than you are.

We should all be glad that we live in a society that allows us the choice to either WOH or SAH.

The popular misconception is that SAHMs sit at home every day doing arts and crafts and gazing lovingly at their DCs. Puhlease. I know so so many SAHMs who go about their own business while Junior entertains himself. The incessant posts on DCUM is a testament to that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to share my thoughts about the concept of daycare in general. I am wondering if anyone agrees with how I feel. It saddens me that so many of us put our kids in daycare. Daycare was my plan when I got pregnant with my first, but after a few weeks of it, I realized that I wanted to be the one raising DC and I quit my job. I am lucky that we were able to afford to get by on just DH's income. I understand that, in this country (especially in the DC area, and other metropolitan areas like it), both parents often have to work in order to be able to support their children. I'm not trying to insult any families that are doing that. My comments are more about the way we're living collectively in this country, where parents find it necessary to outsource the important task of raising their children to person or persons they barely know. Is daycare a common thing in other countries, I wonder (e.g., the Scandinavian countries, where standards of living and quality of life are reported to be so high?) It just seems so unnatural to me...the idea of having people we don't know that well spend more waking hours with our little ones than we do. Sometimes I wonder if it has something to do with the general degeneration of our society (in my opinion). Thanks for listening.

You make me sad....and MAD!!!
how dare you say in one post that you are not trying to insult families that put their kid in daycare and in the same paragraph make comments like:
"It saddens me that so many of us put our kids in daycare"
"I wanted to be the one raising DC"
"parents find it necessary to outsource the important task of raising their children to people they barely know"

Are you so ignorant that you don't see how insulting that is to those of us that put our kid in daycare?
To say to me (yes, ME, who has her kid in daycare) that I'm outsourcing raising my kid is not only insulting it's ignorant and narrow-minded. Not to mention hurtful.

how about I'm broadening my kid's life? I'm finding the best people to surround my kid with? how about, my strengths are not sitting around singing "wheels on the bus," and making crafts but instead are finding the best and the brightest to raise my child the best I know how?

People like you are the reasons SAHMs have such a bad reputation. You're sitting in your house, alone, with an infant, not recognizing that you might not be choosing what's best for your kid, but rather what's best for you. Why not come back to us when your kid is 4, scared to be around anyone else but you, can't read, and doesn't know how to use scissors because he or she has never made a craft before. Then we can say how isolating your child from the world saddens US!!!

15:43 back again.
I understand your frustration with her post, but your last paragraph is unnessary and also insulting. The real point is that kids can be fine either way and in this case, there is no need to second guess other people's choices or feel sad about them either way.

See, OP, there is really just no way to express the things you wanted to express without seeming just a little bit condescending to parents who put their kids in daycare. A couple things of note that PPs already mentioned:

1. Your choice to stay home with your children is one opportunity afforded to you by your privilege. Many families need two incomes to stay financially afloat, not to mention the single parents who do not have an additional income to rely on. Have a little bit of humility and recognize that when you say that it seems "unnatural" to you to put your child into someone else's care, there is really no way for that statement to be met with anything but hurt feelings or anger. I agree that it's unfortunate that we live in a society in which not everyone has the choice that you had.

2. It sounds like your choice to stay home was actually pretty easy for you. You tried daycare for a few weeks, you realized that you wanted to stay home with your child, and then you quit your job to stay home. Many of the women who could afford to do what you did simply don't want to do it. I am one of those women. My job is not particularly impressive, but I enjoy it and am good at it. I worked pretty hard to get where I am now, and while I toyed with the idea of staying home with DD when she was small, I am very glad that I did not do that. See PP's post about all the things that her kids learned in daycare. Above and beyond that, I feel like a much more complete person working during the weekdays and spending my mornings, evenings and weekends playing with DD. I'm sure that you understand how hard it is to be at home with small children all day. Some of us just are just happier working. It doesn't mean that we love our children any less than you love yours.

3. When you talk about who is "raising" your kids, please recognize that having multiple people imparting values to your children is a negative thing only if you are frightened by the values of other people. My personal solution, as a mom who works full time, was to make an effort to get to know the people who take care of DD all day. I welcome their input and views on the world. Many people will influence your child over his/her lifetime. It is this multiplicity of worldviews that grow a well rounded and inquisitive personality.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to share my thoughts about the concept of daycare in general. I am wondering if anyone agrees with how I feel. It saddens me that so many of us put our kids in daycare. Daycare was my plan when I got pregnant with my first, but after a few weeks of it, I realized that I wanted to be the one raising DC and I quit my job. I am lucky that we were able to afford to get by on just DH's income. I understand that, in this country (especially in the DC area, and other metropolitan areas like it), both parents often have to work in order to be able to support their children. I'm not trying to insult any families that are doing that. My comments are more about the way we're living collectively in this country, where parents find it necessary to outsource the important task of raising their children to person or persons they barely know. Is daycare a common thing in other countries, I wonder (e.g., the Scandinavian countries, where standards of living and quality of life are reported to be so high?) It just seems so unnatural to me...the idea of having people we don't know that well spend more waking hours with our little ones than we do. Sometimes I wonder if it has something to do with the general degeneration of our society (in my opinion). Thanks for listening.

You make me sad....and MAD!!!
how dare you say in one post that you are not trying to insult families that put their kid in daycare and in the same paragraph make comments like:
"It saddens me that so many of us put our kids in daycare"

"I wanted to be the one raising DC"
"parents find it necessary to outsource the important task of raising their children to people they barely know"

Are you so ignorant that you don't see how insulting that is to those of us that put our kid in daycare?
To say to me (yes, ME, who has her kid in daycare) that I'm outsourcing raising my kid is not only insulting it's ignorant and narrow-minded. Not to mention hurtful.

how about I'm broadening my kid's life? I'm finding the best people to surround my kid with? how about, my strengths are not sitting around singing "wheels on the bus," and making crafts but instead are finding the best and the brightest to raise my child the best I know how?

People like you are the reasons SAHMs have such a bad reputation. You're sitting in your house, alone, with an infant, not recognizing that you might not be choosing what's best for your kid, but rather what's best for you. Why not come back to us when your kid is 4, scared to be around anyone else but you, can't read, and doesn't know how to use scissors because he or she has never made a craft before. Then we can say how isolating your child from the world saddens US!!!

Alright simmer down, no need to get so defensive. Unless you're feeling guilty for WOH.

I think some of it is about balance. Mom and dad may have children in day care but still spend evenings and weekends with them. It is sad when a parent works so much that the child knows they are not the parent's priority- but that doesn't really have to do with daycare. Of course you can put your child in daycare and still spend quality and a good quantity of time with them. And there are definitely benefits to daycare in that children have social interaction and work on projects they like. Granted, older children benefit more from this than infants but parents do what they have to do to raise happy children and to be healthy and happy themselves. Many women and men would be depressed staying at home. That wouldn't be good for a child either.

OP, this is a very loaded topic, a basket case of topics really. And I am sure this has been discussed ad naseum on every forum from all sorts of perspectives: role of women in society and family, feminism, capitalism and family, etc.

The concept of daycare is not new to modern times, it’s been around since the dawn of human society. Kids were left with family members or other mothers when mothers needed to do some tasks that didn’t allow them to take care of them. Most other times kids just grew up underfoot doing their thing while mothers worked at household related tasks and other jobs they had. Women were not just sitting at home and singing songs and doing crafts with their kids dotting on them 100% of their waking time. And older kids would often look after little ones and help with the household. Wealthy women since the dawn of days used to outsource some or a lot of the childcare to free their time for whatever they desired to do.

I don’t see how it’s different now except the parenting has become a competitive sport and expectations are sky high. When I grew up most kids didn’t read until they learned in elementary school, this didn’t affect their ability to become intelligent educated people later on, so no mother would ever obsess about staying home to lay a foundation to her child’s intellectual future. The ones who stayed home did it for other reasons, they wanted to be stay home mothers, they enjoyed it or they simply could not find jobs to justify the cost of daycare.

Also, OP, some women just don’t want to be SAHMs even if financially the family could afford to live on one income. They are happier when someone else is taking care of kids or household. Does this make it wrong? Again, it’s a loaded topic, but you asked for it.

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to share my thoughts about the concept of daycare in general. I am wondering if anyone agrees with how I feel. It saddens me that so many of us put our kids in daycare. Daycare was my plan when I got pregnant with my first, but after a few weeks of it, I realized that I wanted to be the one raising DC and I quit my job. I am lucky that we were able to afford to get by on just DH's income. I understand that, in this country (especially in the DC area, and other metropolitan areas like it), both parents often have to work in order to be able to support their children. I'm not trying to insult any families that are doing that. My comments are more about the way we're living collectively in this country, where parents find it necessary to outsource the important task of raising their children to person or persons they barely know. Is daycare a common thing in other countries, I wonder (e.g., the Scandinavian countries, where standards of living and quality of life are reported to be so high?) It just seems so unnatural to me...the idea of having people we don't know that well spend more waking hours with our little ones than we do. Sometimes I wonder if it has something to do with the general degeneration of our society (in my opinion). Thanks for listening.

My kids were in daycare and I've been working full-time since they were infants - and I agree with you. It still makes me sad that they spent their infancy and early childhood in the care of others while I worked. I did what I had to do (I make 3x what DH does) but it never felt good. At the time, I mostly blocked those feelings.

My kids are now 14 and 11 and I work part-time, mostly from home. I savor every moment with them and may never work full-time again.

OP, you do see the flaw in your argument right? How can you teach your child trust, self-reliance, value of a cohesive community if you insist on having him tethered to your side 24/7?

Anonymous wrote:Some of us women put our kids in day care because we want to work. We enjoy our jobs and we enjoy contributing to business, the scientific community, the legal community, and other fields just like the menfolk do. If I win the lottery tomorrow I will not become a stay-at-home mom. I was trained to practice a profession and I'm now doing so, just like your husband. My children have high quality child care. They are doing just fine. They are developing perfectly normally.

OP, there has never been a time in history (outside of the early post-war period) that women have been expected to stay at home alone with their children. Women have ALWAYS worked outside of the home. My family comes from a traditional society in rural Africa. All of the adult able-bodied women work. They work in the fields. They work in factories. They do what they need to do to put food on the table. Children are cared for by girls and elderly women who do not have the strength or ability to do the harder work. It has always been that way. Women have always worked and other people (grannies, aunties and young girls) have always looked after people's children.

You are never going to convince the majority of women that they should stay in their homes alone with their children. Women are bright and have skills that benefit society and the economy. We are going to put those skills to use along with our husbands.

Agree. Look at your own family tree and it will be clear that the post WW II era was unusual. My grandmother was a SAHM; her mother worked as a laundress and took in boarders; her mother before her farmed the land. Even my 1950s-era grandma on my father's side worked as a nurse once my dad was in kindergarten. Her mother before her ran a dry cleaner, her mother's mother was a maid. People used to have to work really, REALLY hard for their daily bread; being prosperous enough so that any women other than the very rich could not work was the product of a very particular place and time in our history and is unlikely to be repeated in the future.

I hate to rain on everyone's 1950s fantasy of how the western world always was, but SAHM doting on her kids at home? Was never really the case here, and to the extent it was, was a big aberration from the way things have always been. Throughout history, most daily childcare has been outsourced, either to servants (for the upper classes) or other children or relatives (for the lower classes).

My sister in law is a sahm, and very, very proud of that fact. My brother lost his job and guess who forked over thousands of dollars so they would have food on the table and a roof over their heads? Me, the working mother. Providing for a family's financial security is every bit as important, if not more so, than day-to-day childcare tasks. If there is one value I want to instill in my children, it is a strong work ethic.

Oh, just because you don't have the patience for wheels on the bus doesn't mean that everyone is just like you. My kids do crafts at home and, additionally, at an art-space with other kids, once a week. There are lots of advantages to being at home. Just like I'm sure you see lots of advantages to being at work. But you're still a bitch.