Anonymous wrote:OP, you have no idea what Socialism is if you think Obama is a socialist. That's pure stupidity and ignorance on your part.

I agree with this one. HAHHA.... I laugh when ppl call Obama a socialist. It's like a buzz word they heard on fox news, but they never read up on what it really means.

Thirdly, Fairness. It's just another word for the other measures of equality I've already mentioned.

OP I have exoended considerable effort answering your questions since I am so liberal that TREES hug ME. So could you please answer a question for me: How do you define a socialist, and specifically, how do you define a socialist President?

Second, what is enough "equality". It is unclear in what context you are referring to this. Equality under the justice system, for example, would mean that black defendants and white defendants would be found guilty at the same rate and that their sentences would be on par with one another. It would mean that women would earn the same wage for the same work. It would mean that being a muslim would not automatically bar you from certain achievements in our society, such as the American Presidency. It would mean that college admissions, job applications, and the attitude you get at the DMV are the same whether you are a rich white SAHM or anything else. It would mean that it's illegal for your boss to demand that you fuck him if you want to keep your job. It would mean that any sex act between two consenting adults doesn't involve anyone else's approval. It would mean that legal adults get to choose for themselves which drugs to take, which pregnancies to continue or terminate, and whom to fuck - and if you like, how much to charge them for it. In short, it means freedom to do anything I want if it doesn't interfere with another citizem's rights.

Economic Equality to me reflects Christian values. In a society that has fairness and equality and which values each person equally, we have things like basic healthcare for all citizens. I've checked the bible a few times and Jesus doesn't talk a whole lot about "every man for himself" and, "to he who works hard go the rewards". Most of what he said was more along the lines of, "feed the hungry" and "care for the sick". So yes, we should have universal healthcare and we rich folks, including me, should pay for it. Progressive taxation is a part of this. Affordable housing (apartments, condos, townhouses) amongst the mcmansions in the best school districts is an example of a society that fosters equality. Nobody in a country this rich should be hungry or living in poverty.

Christian values in my mind also don't include hate. So I wouldn't hate people who, for example, are different from me. Muslim, Jewish, Gay, immigrant, poor, English not a first language........ they are people and they are as valueable in the eyes of their creator as I am. If our immigration policy legally let them in or they were born here, then I've got no right to bitch about it. If you don't want immigrants, lobby your representatives to lock down the borders and restrict immigration. But if the people are here, you have to be NICE and RESPECTFUL to them.
And while all this is just a fantasy it means frankly acknowledging how my white skin and perfect English have contributed to the very nice life I live now, in addition to hard work. Nothing makes me roll my eyes more than a white person who begins their "fairness" diatribe with how "I wasn't born with a silver spoon..." blah blah blah. Yeah I know you worked hard. A black kid with equal potential has to work much, much harder against much tougher odds.
Equality means that I hate what the KKK stands for but I respect their right to free assembly and free speech. It also means that I hate the hijab as (to me) a symbol of female oppression and I respect the right of any other individual who wants to wear it. Whatever others choose to wear does not hurt me (as long as they keep the wet parts off the metro bus). It means that if you try to deny my daughters the right to decide what to do with their uteruses and access to a safe and legal on-demand abortion I will go absolutely berserk.
To me "enough equality" is the true fulfillment of the Constitution and Christian values. Every person is equally valued and equally free and unless it's demonstrable that a person's act interferes in the happiness of others, they can do whatever they want.

First: social justice is equal opportunity. Equal right to the pursuit of happiness. It's probably easiest to define by what it's NOT. It is not racist. Not sexist. It doesn't assume that muslims are terrorists, or that poor people don't know how to work hard (thanks Newt). A just society does not conclue that Christianity is right and everything else is wrong. Thus the fundamentalist Christian agenda in our society cannot be imposed on everyone. For example, we cannot assume that homosexuality is wrong because you have a really old book that says so.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:you can be a "socialist" without being a marxist. Similar to the socialist parties of western europe, with that failed late 70s early 80s market socialist hybrid. i.e., the govt controls the means of production of many industries with much more of a welfare state. So yeah, I think Obama is likely that form of "socialist". He distrusts the markets and finds the accumulation of capital distasteful and inequitable.

Well he has a funny way of showing it, because he did not nationalize the banks like the IMF said he should do. We capitalized them and pushed the bad ones into the arms of private buyers that were more healthy. That's the opposite.

Don't forget: he nationalized one of the major car manufacturers...then turned around and privatized it shortly thereafter.

Seriously, I'm curious OP: Do you actually believe any of this shit, or is it all just a kind of tongue-in-cheek ribbing? By that I mean, what's your place in the modern conservative movement? Rube or Huckster?

Obama is essentially a vaguely right-of-center moderate somewhere between Bill Clinton and Bob Dole model. He's a black George HW Bush. But the Right has gone to this very odd place where unless their opponents are basically the return of Pol Pot, their politics make no sense anymore. It must be frightening for any natural conservative with even half a brain in their head. Isn't it?

Anonymous wrote:you can be a "socialist" without being a marxist. Similar to the socialist parties of western europe, with that failed late 70s early 80s market socialist hybrid. i.e., the govt controls the means of production of many industries with much more of a welfare state. So yeah, I think Obama is likely that form of "socialist". He distrusts the markets and finds the accumulation of capital distasteful and inequitable.

Well he has a funny way of showing it, because he did not nationalize the banks like the IMF said he should do. We capitalized them and pushed the bad ones into the arms of private buyers that were more healthy. That's the opposite.

Anonymous wrote:So yeah, I think Obama is likely that form of "socialist". He distrusts the markets and finds the accumulation of capital distasteful and inequitable.

And he secretly believes that Reese's Pieces are alien infiltrators. He fears geese, and hates helvetica. I can tell!

Anonymous wrote:you can be a "socialist" without being a marxist. Similar to the socialist parties of western europe, with that failed late 70s early 80s market socialist hybrid. i.e., the govt controls the means of production of many industries with much more of a welfare state. So yeah, I think Obama is likely that form of "socialist". He distrusts the markets and finds the accumulation of capital distasteful and inequitable.

Evidence, please? Or is this just more mind-reading?

In any case, we live in a socialist country. We have since the near collapse of our society in the 30s. We have a huge super-majority support for Socialism here in the US. Even the furthest right nutjobs of the GOP seem to understand this--which is why not a single one of them will openly campaign against socialist programs like Social Security and Medicare.

Just because the president doesn't anthropomorphize and fetishize "Teh Markets" as though they were his God, doesn't mean he's against them. Heck, anyone with even half a functioning brain realizes that "the markets" only work if they're well-regulated. And we've had policies that work to reverse the concentration of wealth into the hands of the few in this country since it was founded. In fact, the estate tax was one of the cornerstones of our young nation. It's only in the last few decades that a few democracy-haters have worked feverishly to create a multi-generational plutocracy here in America. America is about working hard and building wealth. Not about being able to lavish riches on your children so they never have to contribute anything.

you can be a "socialist" without being a marxist. Similar to the socialist parties of western europe, with that failed late 70s early 80s market socialist hybrid. i.e., the govt controls the means of production of many industries with much more of a welfare state. So yeah, I think Obama is likely that form of "socialist". He distrusts the markets and finds the accumulation of capital distasteful and inequitable.

Obama is a strong statist with little regard for market mechanisms. And he wants to strongly redistribute wealth. Not the same as a socialist.

Anonymous wrote:

TheManWithAUsername wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand 100% what socialism is and I think Obama is likely a socialist. That does not mean he has implemented socialism, but it means I think he would like to, and would prefer that sort of social economic and political system.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of presidents? The OP knows!

I am not the OP. And I graduated in Poli Sci, I know socialism.

If like OP you believe that he's a socialist but has been prevented from implementing it, then maybe you can tell us your evidence for that belief or tell us how you acquired the mystic ability to see people's unexpressed desires.

Anonymous wrote:

TheManWithAUsername wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand 100% what socialism is and I think Obama is likely a socialist. That does not mean he has implemented socialism, but it means I think he would like to, and would prefer that sort of social economic and political system.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of presidents? The OP knows!

I am not the OP. And I graduated in Poli Sci, I know socialism.

Great, you have the education. So in what form of socialism do you categorize Obama?

TheManWithAUsername wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand 100% what socialism is and I think Obama is likely a socialist. That does not mean he has implemented socialism, but it means I think he would like to, and would prefer that sort of social economic and political system.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of presidents? The OP knows!

I am not the OP. And I graduated in Poli Sci, I know socialism.

Anonymous wrote:I understand 100% what socialism is and I think Obama is likely a socialist. That does not mean he has implemented socialism, but it means I think he would like to, and would prefer that sort of social economic and political system.

What is socialism to you. Since you 100% understand it?

Anonymous wrote:I understand 100% what socialism is and I think Obama is likely a socialist. That does not mean he has implemented socialism, but it means I think he would like to, and would prefer that sort of social economic and political system.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of presidents? The OP knows!