Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Exposure to other cultures is a good thing, not a bad thing. My kids have attended several schools between them, and at every school they have sung Hannukah and Kwanza songs as well as maybe one (and not always one) Christmas song.

I never even thought of complaining about the Hannukah and Kwanza songs. I doubt any of you would come on here complaining about the Hanukkah songs, either (that's because I think some of you are hypocrites).

Do you not see the difference between a holiday song (which might be about the holiday of Christmas, Thanksgiving, Hanukkah or Kwanzaa) and a religious song (which is essentially a musical prayer), or are you intentionally ignoring the difference. I can tell you that I don't think it's appropriate to be singing religious songs in elementary school no matter what the religion is.

I agree that exposing kids to other cultures is a good thing, but think the suggestion that Christianity (or Christmas) is a culture to which non-Christians need more exposure is a little silly. I can tell you that Jewish kids in my neighborhood usually knew more about Christianity than the Christian kids.

It sounds like you're saying that if my kids sang a Channukah song it must have been secular, but that any Christmas song is by definition religious, either in explicit content (Oh come, oh come, Emmanuel) or by association (Jingle Bells).

Really? That's absurd!!!! If you really need an explanation from me, a non-Jew, my kids sang Hannukah songs about lighting the menorah in school. They didn't sing anything by Adam Sandler, and I'd be really suprised to hear that any non-Jewish school is doing Adam Sandler or his secular ilk.

And congrats that your kids know all about Christianity (although I totally think you're wrong about this and exaggerating). Like another PP said, you really do sound like you want your kids in a little cave of you own religion where they never learn anything about Christianity, Islam, Kwanzaa, Buddhism, atheism, or anything you don't teach them yourself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just pull your kid out and tell them he cannot sing anything that has anything to do with Christmas. Then, you should put him in an all Hebrew school where he will never be around another Christian again. Tolerance isn't your strong suit, is it?

Oh boy, "tolerance" lady is back again. I'll spare you the definition of religious tolerance, because you won't get it this time, either. But you still haven't answered this question: why doesn't anyone say to Christians, "Why don't you put your child in a Christian school so he can sing all the religious songs he wants?"

Because it's a lot easier to just get the minorities to conform to the majority, right?

To date, Christians are the majority in public schools. Majority rules in a democracy so if you don't want your kids exposed to Christianity, then educate them in a school of their own religion and they will not be exposed to Christians. Of course, this changes when you get out of school. But maybe they can find a profession where everyone is of the same religion and live in an area where everyone is the same religion. These used to be called Ghettos and they weren't particularly good, were they?

Anonymous wrote:Exposure to other cultures is a good thing, not a bad thing. My kids have attended several schools between them, and at every school they have sung Hannukah and Kwanza songs as well as maybe one (and not always one) Christmas song.

I never even thought of complaining about the Hannukah and Kwanza songs. I doubt any of you would come on here complaining about the Hanukkah songs, either (that's because I think some of you are hypocrites).

Do you not see the difference between a holiday song (which might be about the holiday of Christmas, Thanksgiving, Hanukkah or Kwanzaa) and a religious song (which is essentially a musical prayer), or are you intentionally ignoring the difference. I can tell you that I don't think it's appropriate to be singing religious songs in elementary school no matter what the religion is.

I agree that exposing kids to other cultures is a good thing, but think the suggestion that Christianity (or Christmas) is a culture to which non-Christians need more exposure is a little silly. I can tell you that Jewish kids in my neighborhood usually knew more about Christianity than the Christian kids.

This is a teachable moment. Tell your son this is a religious song, and that it's very popular in churches. I doubt the intention here is to proselytize.

Also, if you want to exclude songs like this, where's the end of it? Each and every U.S. currency bill has IN GOD WE TRUST printed on it. Congress has a chaplain. Yet our popular culture is secular.

I'd go with the flow.

Is this one of the ex catholic school charters? I would
Not be comfortable with this.

20:01 Finally, a voice of reason. Thank you.

Exposure to other cultures is a good thing, not a bad thing. My kids have attended several schools between them, and at every school they have sung Hannukah and Kwanza songs as well as maybe one (and not always one) Christmas song.

I never even thought of complaining about the Hannukah and Kwanza songs. I doubt any of you would come on here complaining about the Hanukkah songs, either (that's because I think some of you are hypocrites).

Actually, some of you seem like intolerant jerks who don't even want to listen to other points of view. 15:10 is telling a polite PP to go away, and 16:10 is screeching about anti-semitism with no obvious reason except that the PP in question complained about ... the stereotype poster who screeches about anti-semitism. You guys are both trying to shut down anybody from even taking about another point of view -- which is pretty rich since you're claiming to defend a minority viewpoint!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was raised Christian, and have always liked Oh Come, Oh Come Emmanuel, perhaps because of its dirge-like qualities. It's not very cheery.

But, if my kid were singing it at a PUBLIC SCHOOL, I would be livid. It is absolutely fundamentally religious to its core, and singing about awaiting your savior does not belong in a public school.

it is art. You don't think some books or poems don't have messages that are religious, or anti-religious or anything else you might not like? Do you want to censor music now?

As a similar examples - anything written by James Joyce would be out too. Or 18th and before centuries music. The church was the largest patron of the arts. So when you teach that it requires some knowledge of the (mostly) catholic traditions. If one has problems with Christian music then you are saying all religious music, books, etc.

So either the policy is open to all or closed to all. I prefer open to all, education to all, but obviously people don't share that sentiment.

OR, the policy might be that we make a judgment based on what's appropriate for the age of the kids involved- did your ever consider that? I might think it's inappropriate for my elementary school kids read James Joyce and sing overtly religious songs, but appropriate for high school kids to do either one.

Anonymous wrote:Just pull your kid out and tell them he cannot sing anything that has anything to do with Christmas. Then, you should put him in an all Hebrew school where he will never be around another Christian again. Tolerance isn't your strong suit, is it?

Oh boy, "tolerance" lady is back again. I'll spare you the definition of religious tolerance, because you won't get it this time, either. But you still haven't answered this question: why doesn't anyone say to Christians, "Why don't you put your child in a Christian school so he can sing all the religious songs he wants?"

Because it's a lot easier to just get the minorities to conform to the majority, right?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was raised Christian, and have always liked Oh Come, Oh Come Emmanuel, perhaps because of its dirge-like qualities. It's not very cheery.

But, if my kid were singing it at a PUBLIC SCHOOL, I would be livid. It is absolutely fundamentally religious to its core, and singing about awaiting your savior does not belong in a public school.

it is art. You don't think some books or poems don't have messages that are religious, or anti-religious or anything else you might not like? Do you want to censor music now?

As a similar examples - anything written by James Joyce would be out too. Or 18th and before centuries music. The church was the largest patron of the arts. So when you teach that it requires some knowledge of the (mostly) catholic traditions. If one has problems with Christian music then you are saying all religious music, books, etc.

So either the policy is open to all or closed to all. I prefer open to all, education to all, but obviously people don't share that sentiment.

Are you asking whether this is constitutional, or whether you should be OK with it?

I'm atheist and still celebrate Christmas in a non-secular sense as a season of peace, giving and togetherness. My kids learn about Hanukkah, Kwanza and Christmas in their school and I love that they are being exposed to difference religions and traditions and I hope that this will help them become open-minded adults. I would have no problem with their singing a song from any of these religions as long as they are not being "taught" that a certain religion or certain beliefs are right and all others are wrong.

Just pull your kid out and tell them he cannot sing anything that has anything to do with Christmas. Then, you should put him in an all Hebrew school where he will never be around another Christian again. Tolerance isn't your strong suit, is it?

there is legal decision on this that applies to NJ and PA
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/06/ban-on-school-christmas-c_n_751839.html

The Supreme Court declined to hear the case.

OP, O Come O Come Emmanuel is an overtly religious, sacred song.

It is not an appropriate choice for an elementary school winter program in public school.