Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

People, how do we attract them to where they are needed most? From a west of the park school to an environment that can burn you out fast?

I am an excellent teacher at a private school for low-income students. I used to teach at a very high need school in Ward 8. I would be happy and eager to return to one of the poorest schools in DC if I were assured that disruptive students would be removed from the classroom and disciplined. The most frustrating thing as a teacher in Ward 8 was having 3 students prevent 22 from learning anything.

Sorry, no can do. As a teacher in DCPS, you are responsible for all of the children who turn up in your classroom. Every child deserves an education, even the disruptive ones. If you can't handle them, you are inferior, according to DCPS and are marked down on IMPACT.

According to Kwame Brown, teachers from ward 3 who have been rated highly effective are more likely to handle these problems than you, who have experience with these children and are eager to teach them.

I can't really tell if you are being serious or sarcastic, but as a teacher, I can tell you that you have two things wrong.

1) disruptive students deserve an education, but not at the expense of the learning of other students in the classroom. Educate disruptive students elsewhere.

2) experience with disruptive students and a eagerness to teach them is not all it takes to magically create a peaceful, effective classroom. It takes a whole team of professionals, a different pace and approach and lots of patience and time. Mixing 2 or 3 of these students into a classroom of 25 who don't require the same approach is unfair to rest of the classroom that is 'ready to go" and, it is unfair to the disruptive students who likely are acting out for a reason and need different attention.

The reasons why so many "highly effective" teachers just happen to be in NW schools:

1. students behave better; come from higher SES families
2. students score higher
3. parents are supportive and involved
4. better resources available


If the "effective" teachers in Ward 8 had these circumstances they might be rated "highly effective" too.

You can imagine how dissed they feel. How about more support for these individuals?

Way to go DCPS.

I hear that there is a higher percentage of inexperienced teachers in wards 7 and 8. If teacher quality is so important, How did that happen, 5 years into reform?

With such huge teacher turnover, you'd think DCPS would have tried to beef up the teaching staff where it was needed most without special legislation 5 years later. Part of the problem could be that reformers thought the new, inexperienced teachers they assigned to high-needs school were actually superior.

What a joke

Anonymous wrote:It's pretty straightforward: if your solution to poor school outcomes in DC is "eliminate regional poverty" you're proposing absolutely nothing.

DCPS ain't gonna fix the fact that there are poor people. The very idea is distilled stupidity and buck-passing.

What's the alternative? Berate teachers? Threaten principals? Expect a cadre of highly effective teachers to singlehandedly turn-around the schools? Cheat and then stifle an investigation?

It's pretty straightforward: if your solution to poor school outcomes in DC is "hire better teachers" you're proposing absolutely nothing.

DCPS ain't gonna fix the fact that even the best teachers aren't miracle workers who can turnaround the results of decades of entrenched poverty. The very idea is distilled stupidity and buck-passing.

So, What to do? It requires a multi-pronged approach and will take some time. It won't be the flashy turnaround so many reformers came to town for. We should get to work on it soon and drop the current foolishness which only serves to employ priggish self-absorbed school reformers who care more about their pay checks and their self-image as saviors of public education than the kids they serve.

It's pretty straightforward: if your solution to poor school outcomes in DC is "eliminate regional poverty" you're proposing absolutely nothing.

DCPS ain't gonna fix the fact that there are poor people. The very idea is distilled stupidity and buck-passing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

People, how do we attract them to where they are needed most? From a west of the park school to an environment that can burn you out fast?

I am an excellent teacher at a private school for low-income students. I used to teach at a very high need school in Ward 8. I would be happy and eager to return to one of the poorest schools in DC if I were assured that disruptive students would be removed from the classroom and disciplined. The most frustrating thing as a teacher in Ward 8 was having 3 students prevent 22 from learning anything.

Sorry, no can do. As a teacher in DCPS, you are responsible for all of the children who turn up in your classroom. Every child deserves an education, even the disruptive ones. If you can't handle them, you are inferior, according to DCPS and are marked down on IMPACT.

According to Kwame Brown, teachers from ward 3 who have been rated highly effective are more likely to handle these problems than you, who have experience with these children and are eager to teach them.

Anonymous wrote:

People, how do we attract them to where they are needed most? From a west of the park school to an environment that can burn you out fast?

I am an excellent teacher at a private school for low-income students. I used to teach at a very high need school in Ward 8. I would be happy and eager to return to one of the poorest schools in DC if I were assured that disruptive students would be removed from the classroom and disciplined. The most frustrating thing as a teacher in Ward 8 was having 3 students prevent 22 from learning anything.

WTU votes? Teachers would not be impressed by this. They know it's BS. It's actually an insult to teachers currently in wards 7 and 8

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In that case will we now see it's not just the teachers teaching that will get his or her scores up but the assistance of an active parent. Then again some parents aren't able to help their children with homework etc. so what happens then. I myself remember a little Algebra etc. but still pay for a tutor for my child. What I'm trying to say is that it's more to just getting a highly effective teacher in a low perfoming neighborhood, who knows what goes on in a child home, which could effect their learning.

Given that you seem to think teacher quality doesn't make much of a difference, why on Earth are we bothering to get certified teachers in these inner city schools, anyway? Why not just save some cash, and pick up a bus full of "teachers" every morning from in front of the Home Depot?

Teacher quality makes a difference, and teachers know they can be more successful with kids who have help at home.

...or with kids who are from wealthy families. Or kids whose mother has a high level of educational attainment. All this is well-known. I'm just puzzled that the counter-argument is inevitably "Sure we can try to get effective teachers into these struggling schools, but that will only have a relatively small impact compared with "Solving Entrenched Social Problem A".

Personally, I'd like to see a mandatory national minimum wage of $50k, as that would do more than any other thing to improve educational outcomes (along with everything else). Maybe someday that will happen. Maybe it won't. But DCPS will not be solving that particular set of problems.

Wow. That's a great way to send unemployment from 10% to 20%. You go girl.

Great, so have government simply write a check to make up the shortfall. In other words, salaries paid by private industry would be subsidized by public funds.

Increasing the role of government is hardly a formula for success in DCPS. That's why it continues to languish and charters continue to thrive.

This is a merely a political stratagem by the beleaguered Kwame Brown masquerading as educational policy. It's not designed to improve either schools or education, it's designed to capture WTU union votes.

Anonymous wrote:Highly effective teachers might make a significant difference for these students. Few would dispute that.

People, how do we attract them to where they are needed most? From a west of the park school to an environment that can burn you out fast?

I ask you, who wants to leave a spot where school resources are good, the PTA is strong, students do what's expected of them, parents are supportive, and your evaluations will remain favorable.

The Brown scenario requires accepting that the best teachers are west of the park because there are more teachers there rated highly effective according to IMPACT. I doubt many if any teachers think this.

Are you suggesting that Brown's deal would pry teachers out of ward 3? Has anyone asked teachers about this?

Has anyone checked with the "effective" teachers in testing grades in wards 7 and 8 who would have been highly effective if their kids' scores were higher (like the kids in ward 3)? What makes anyone think they are not as good as ward 3 teachers who have little or no experience with low SES kids, and none under IMPACT

I haven't heard Brown mention any of this.

Highly effective teachers might make a significant difference for these students. Few would dispute that.

People, how do we attract them to where they are needed most? From a west of the park school to an environment that can burn you out fast?

I ask you, who wants to leave a spot where school resources are good, the PTA is strong, students do what's expected of them, parents are supportive, and your evaluations will remain favorable.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In that case will we now see it's not just the teachers teaching that will get his or her scores up but the assistance of an active parent. Then again some parents aren't able to help their children with homework etc. so what happens then. I myself remember a little Algebra etc. but still pay for a tutor for my child. What I'm trying to say is that it's more to just getting a highly effective teacher in a low perfoming neighborhood, who knows what goes on in a child home, which could effect their learning.

I agree with you that externalities play a critical role. At the same time, I wouldn't just write these kids off. Giving them good teachers is better than not giving them good teachers. But, if you are waiting for Kwame Brown to start blaming voters for their children's poor educations, I wouldn't hold your breadth.

It
s nt a matter of writing the kids off, it's a matter of choosing a solution that is likely to work -- like tutors or a longer school day, or appropriate social services, -- not putting a "highly effective" teacher in front of them and expecting a miracle.

Anonymous wrote:
Not sure when folks like you will get it. You whole approach is a little bit like saying, "When will public health officials get it??? While putting suntan lotion on a baby will help prevent sunburn, what's really the problem is that the sun puts out harmful UV rays!!"

Great. The fact that we can identify an environmental factor about which we can do nothing has no bearing on whether we should take steps which we *can* control.

How is it possible not to comprehend this?

Not sure when folks like you will stop disparaging people who don't hold your views will get that it's not a simple matter of not getting it -- that such an attitude is writing off other people's opinions and alternative solutions, without considering that there is something to them, especially given that the things we "can" control aren't helping the situation. (In contrast, suntan lotion actually prevents sunburn)

Who says "we' cant do anything about environmental factors? Maybe that's true if "we are school administrators who have justified our whole existence around getting kids scores up.

What if those steps -- focusing completely on teacher quality -- as measured by newly minted and questionable evaluation instruments like IMPACT and teacher auditioning and money, merit pay for teachers, capital gains for students -- aren't working?


When do we "get" that the school system or the larger society - SOMETHING - has to try to address those factors or the kids won't be helped? When do we "get" that continuing down the current path just keeps paying the salaries of failed reformers - who can only blame others for educational failures.

Teachers and involved parents have always understood the importance of outside factors in kids' education. How much longer are the kids going to suffer before reformers get this and try to address it or get out?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:15:42...glad kids aren't allowed on here...or are they?....it's unfortunate that we live in a society where some ADULTS don't get their act together and the kids have to suffer...good luck with fixing that.

Those ADULTS were kids at one point. And the current set of kids are going to be...wait for it...ADULTS too at some point.

The fact that you can't seem to wrap your head around the concept says a lot more about you than it does about anything else. And yes, while we can't fix the broken adults, the fact that we don't even try to help the kids is a pretty sad indictment of society at large.

Well I hope you have time in your day to go home with these kids and help them with their homework

Sorry, but individual volunteerism isn't going to even begin to make a dent in the problem. As Cheney put it, it's an expression of personal virtue, but little more.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In that case will we now see it's not just the teachers teaching that will get his or her scores up but the assistance of an active parent. Then again some parents aren't able to help their children with homework etc. so what happens then. I myself remember a little Algebra etc. but still pay for a tutor for my child. What I'm trying to say is that it's more to just getting a highly effective teacher in a low perfoming neighborhood, who knows what goes on in a child home, which could effect their learning.

Given that you seem to think teacher quality doesn't make much of a difference, why on Earth are we bothering to get certified teachers in these inner city schools, anyway? Why not just save some cash, and pick up a bus full of "teachers" every morning from in front of the Home Depot?

Teacher quality makes a difference, and teachers know they can be more successful with kids who have help at home.

...or with kids who are from wealthy families. Or kids whose mother has a high level of educational attainment. All this is well-known. I'm just puzzled that the counter-argument is inevitably "Sure we can try to get effective teachers into these struggling schools, but that will only have a relatively small impact compared with "Solving Entrenched Social Problem A".

Personally, I'd like to see a mandatory national minimum wage of $50k, as that would do more than any other thing to improve educational outcomes (along with everything else). Maybe someday that will happen. Maybe it won't. But DCPS will not be solving that particular set of problems.

Wow. That's a great way to send unemployment from 10% to 20%. You go girl.

Great, so have government simply write a check to make up the shortfall. In other words, salaries paid by private industry would be subsidized by public funds.