Why do all of the schools on greatschools that have very low ratings and
test scores have a higher rate of free and reduced lunches. I dont think race is an issue .

These threads are so depressing. Sometimes I don't know why I still read them. Anyway... Even at schools with high FARMS rates and lots of ethnic diversity, certain kids still do well. I would imagine that those who consistently do well are probably in the same demographic as many on this board. So, certain kids will do well wherever they are. A school's FARMS rate and test scores do not tell the whole story. Some of the schools with lower overall scores have great, dedicated teachers, administrators and parents. This is public school. Our communities are diverse. The educational system needs a lot of work, but the tendency to point fingers at students (and their families) who come to school with fewer advantages is so misdirected. DCUMers, by and large, your kids will be fine.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really, you don't? Because we now have decades of empirical research that demonstrates that poor kids do worse in school, have more behavioral problems as a group and less involved parents.

Nobody has a knee-jerk reaction to one such poor child. A school comprised of 50% or more? Different experience in the classroom. I'm sorry that's painful to hear.

I can see the logic in this, but I also see counterexamples in this area where at least according to test results there is no tell-tale difference between kids with difference incomes. For instance you can scroll down and look at the test results for two completely opposite schools in the area, Bethesda Elementary with 6% FARMS: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02401.pdf and Highland Elementary with 84% FARMS: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02774.pdf I did see that Highland won a blue ribbon this year so should I think of this as some kind of outlier or a possibility that it can be done?

Have you looked at the disaggregated data?

Review Highland View - http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02784.pdf

- Whites, grade 5, reading - 94.8
- LEP, grade 5, reading - 57.2
- FARMs, grade 4, math - 69.5
- LEP, grade 3, reading - 46.6


Students now or have in the past received FARMS (ever FARMs) - 49.9%

It makes a difference. Don't fool yourself.

That is old data for Highland View. The newest data is on the Maryland Report card site.On last year's MSA's (2010-2011), students performed for the most part, much better. If this link works, it will show particularly the FARMS student scores: http://www.mdreportcard.org/MsaTrends.aspx?PV=1:5:15:0774:1:N:0:5:2:2:1:1:1:1:3
Grade 5 reading -non-farms students equal to or greater than 95%, FARMS students 93.3%. Grade 5 reading non-farms greater to or equal to 95%, FARMS86.7%, Frade 4 math, all students 91.2%, FARMS 90.2%, Grade 4 reading all students and FARMS scored greater than 95%. Grade 3 math and reading, FARMS students actually outscored the all student category with scores in the 80s.

Not only are the FARMS students not dragging down their affluent counterparts, but they are performing relatively well in their own right.

NO! The above data says nothing about subgroups. If you move to the Midwest and examine FARMs, you'll notice that there are more white kids in that group. Here, in our diverse area, we're looking at minority groups, too. Where is the breakdown for Hispanic, black and Asian? Where is the breakdown for ESL?

Sure, in one lump category, FARMs looks "good," but once you break down the data, you'll see where the challenges are. Furthermore, I love how the one poster compares the level of white achievers in a Bethesda school to white achievers in a downcounty school.

Here's the quote from 15:43:
At Bethesda Elementary, I looked up the same statistic, and white, grade 5 reading for Bethesda Elementary is 98%. It looks like those white kids are testing nearly the same despite the presence of the lower-scoring kids in their class. It's not clear the lower-scoring kids are bringing anyone down.

Wow! I guess you don't recognize how racist that sounds. So it's OK for "the others" (aka "them") to score low as long as the whites are still achieving.

Huh? I don't understand this last post. If you click on the maryland report card link, you can click around and cut the data by all those demographics. Highland View is a small school, so cutting the data too much yields results that may not tell you much. 80% of AA fourth graders means 9 of 11 students. Are you trying to say that the problem is really having black and hispanic kids at a school, and if the FARMS kids were all white it would be ok? And even if ESL kids struggle, the point is that non-ESL kids are not doing poorly simply because those kids are in the same school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really, you don't? Because we now have decades of empirical research that demonstrates that poor kids do worse in school, have more behavioral problems as a group and less involved parents.

Nobody has a knee-jerk reaction to one such poor child. A school comprised of 50% or more? Different experience in the classroom. I'm sorry that's painful to hear.

I can see the logic in this, but I also see counterexamples in this area where at least according to test results there is no tell-tale difference between kids with difference incomes. For instance you can scroll down and look at the test results for two completely opposite schools in the area, Bethesda Elementary with 6% FARMS: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02401.pdf and Highland Elementary with 84% FARMS: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02774.pdf I did see that Highland won a blue ribbon this year so should I think of this as some kind of outlier or a possibility that it can be done?

Have you looked at the disaggregated data?

Review Highland View - http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02784.pdf

- Whites, grade 5, reading - 94.8
- LEP, grade 5, reading - 57.2
- FARMs, grade 4, math - 69.5
- LEP, grade 3, reading - 46.6


Students now or have in the past received FARMS (ever FARMs) - 49.9%

It makes a difference. Don't fool yourself.

That is old data for Highland View. The newest data is on the Maryland Report card site.On last year's MSA's (2010-2011), students performed for the most part, much better. If this link works, it will show particularly the FARMS student scores: http://www.mdreportcard.org/MsaTrends.aspx?PV=1:5:15:0774:1:N:0:5:2:2:1:1:1:1:3
Grade 5 reading -non-farms students equal to or greater than 95%, FARMS students 93.3%. Grade 5 reading non-farms greater to or equal to 95%, FARMS86.7%, Frade 4 math, all students 91.2%, FARMS 90.2%, Grade 4 reading all students and FARMS scored greater than 95%. Grade 3 math and reading, FARMS students actually outscored the all student category with scores in the 80s.

Not only are the FARMS students not dragging down their affluent counterparts, but they are performing relatively well in their own right.

NO! The above data says nothing about subgroups. If you move to the Midwest and examine FARMs, you'll notice that there are more white kids in that group. Here, in our diverse area, we're looking at minority groups, too. Where is the breakdown for Hispanic, black and Asian? Where is the breakdown for ESL?

Sure, in one lump category, FARMs looks "good," but once you break down the data, you'll see where the challenges are. Furthermore, I love how the one poster compares the level of white achievers in a Bethesda school to white achievers in a downcounty school.

Here's the quote from 15:43:
At Bethesda Elementary, I looked up the same statistic, and white, grade 5 reading for Bethesda Elementary is 98%. It looks like those white kids are testing nearly the same despite the presence of the lower-scoring kids in their class. It's not clear the lower-scoring kids are bringing anyone down.

Wow! I guess you don't recognize how racist that sounds. So it's OK for "the others" (aka "them") to score low as long as the whites are still achieving.

I made $39K two years ago, but I still paid for my DCs lunch. I have a degree and a career, and I have time to read to my children. I also teach them piano, cursive, pick them up from school, take them to museums and do the things you rich moms do. There are also plenty of high income moms who are too busy for their children. So you can't really lump all the lower paid professionals with the crack moms. Maybe you should try talking to some of these "poor" people. You might learn something you couldn't learn at a prestigious university.

Yes as the previous poster said there are some exception s who will be found here on dcum because they care , but they are the minority. Off everything was the same home prices wouldn't be higher in better school zones.

"As the daughter of a single mom who worked as a legal secretary and made the 1970's equivalent of $40K a year -- yes, yes I do. I went to public school with lots of poor kids (didn't consider myself poor), got into a magnet high school, attended a top-20 private university. My mom read to us every single night until late in elementary school. I devoured books and my brother did too. Our house had lots of limits and positive reenforcement, appropriate discipline, etc.

You seem to think that money provides some halo-like gloss that enables people to be better parents. This is really not true. I'm so sorry for you that you have this limited world view. I worry for how your kids will turn out

Screw the bitches!

Y'all know that some DCUMers are former recipients of FARMs?

And/or our kids?

AS I read it the grade 5 white students are doing fine. By all account Highland View is a wonderful, small school that celebrates diversity with committed parents of all socioeconomic backgrounds and an excellent principal. How are the presumably higher SES students being harmed by the FARMs students in this example?

I always thought that it was the mother's level of education that trumped every other factor. I'm a single mom with my Master's whose kid in one of the top students in his class. I make under $50K per year. Stop making assumptions. You are making yourself look ignorant.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really, you don't? Because we now have decades of empirical research that demonstrates that poor kids do worse in school, have more behavioral problems as a group and less involved parents.

Nobody has a knee-jerk reaction to one such poor child. A school comprised of 50% or more? Different experience in the classroom. I'm sorry that's painful to hear.

I can see the logic in this, but I also see counterexamples in this area where at least according to test results there is no tell-tale difference between kids with difference incomes. For instance you can scroll down and look at the test results for two completely opposite schools in the area, Bethesda Elementary with 6% FARMS: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02401.pdf and Highland Elementary with 84% FARMS: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02774.pdf I did see that Highland won a blue ribbon this year so should I think of this as some kind of outlier or a possibility that it can be done?

Have you looked at the disaggregated data?

Review Highland View - http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02784.pdf

- Whites, grade 5, reading - 94.8
- LEP, grade 5, reading - 57.2
- FARMs, grade 4, math - 69.5
- LEP, grade 3, reading - 46.6


Students now or have in the past received FARMS (ever FARMs) - 49.9%

It makes a difference. Don't fool yourself.

That is old data for Highland View. The newest data is on the Maryland Report card site.On last year's MSA's (2010-2011), students performed for the most part, much better. If this link works, it will show particularly the FARMS student scores: http://www.mdreportcard.org/MsaTrends.aspx?PV=1:5:15:0774:1:N:0:5:2:2:1:1:1:1:3
Grade 5 reading -non-farms students equal to or greater than 95%, FARMS students 93.3%. Grade 5 reading non-farms greater to or equal to 95%, FARMS86.7%, Frade 4 math, all students 91.2%, FARMS 90.2%, Grade 4 reading all students and FARMS scored greater than 95%. Grade 3 math and reading, FARMS students actually outscored the all student category with scores in the 80s.

Not only are the FARMS students not dragging down their affluent counterparts, but they are performing relatively well in their own right.

Wow that is awesome.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really, you don't? Because we now have decades of empirical research that demonstrates that poor kids do worse in school, have more behavioral problems as a group and less involved parents.

Nobody has a knee-jerk reaction to one such poor child. A school comprised of 50% or more? Different experience in the classroom. I'm sorry that's painful to hear.

I can see the logic in this, but I also see counterexamples in this area where at least according to test results there is no tell-tale difference between kids with difference incomes. For instance you can scroll down and look at the test results for two completely opposite schools in the area, Bethesda Elementary with 6% FARMS: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02401.pdf and Highland Elementary with 84% FARMS: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02774.pdf I did see that Highland won a blue ribbon this year so should I think of this as some kind of outlier or a possibility that it can be done?

Have you looked at the disaggregated data?

Review Highland View - http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02784.pdf

- Whites, grade 5, reading - 94.8
- LEP, grade 5, reading - 57.2
- FARMs, grade 4, math - 69.5
- LEP, grade 3, reading - 46.6


Students now or have in the past received FARMS (ever FARMs) - 49.9%

It makes a difference. Don't fool yourself.

That is old data for Highland View. The newest data is on the Maryland Report card site.On last year's MSA's (2010-2011), students performed for the most part, much better. If this link works, it will show particularly the FARMS student scores: http://www.mdreportcard.org/MsaTrends.aspx?PV=1:5:15:0774:1:N:0:5:2:2:1:1:1:1:3
Grade 5 reading -non-farms students equal to or greater than 95%, FARMS students 93.3%. Grade 5 reading non-farms greater to or equal to 95%, FARMS86.7%, Frade 4 math, all students 91.2%, FARMS 90.2%, Grade 4 reading all students and FARMS scored greater than 95%. Grade 3 math and reading, FARMS students actually outscored the all student category with scores in the 80s.

Not only are the FARMS students not dragging down their affluent counterparts, but they are performing relatively well in their own right.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's be clear about the income guidelines here. According to the MCPS website, a family of 4 qualifies for FARMS if their income is below $41,000 per year. As a comparison, the median family income in the United States according to Wikipedia is $45,000 per year. So the children getting FARMS in this area are not necessarily abjectly poor.

Wow. I can tell you've never had to try to raise your kids on 41K a year ....... We have three in our family and make about this much, and I can tell you, if we didn't have outside help, there are days we wouldn't eat.

OK I'll retract this because it's being read by people as ignorance or accusation. In truth you don't know what income I have had in my past. My point was not that $41,000 is a lot around here -- I get that. In my way I was just trying to defend these families by showing that they can be working professionals and make this income and still qualify for lunch aid. In my profession 41K would be a pretty common salary. The previous posts had made the families receiving FARMS out to be all alcoholics and neglectful parents, and I had written this in an attempt to defend them in some way.

I totally get what you are saying. Someone could be an admin assistant in an office and make $41K. If that person were a single mom, her kids might get FARMS assistance but there's nothing to say she wouldn't be reading to them at night and doing other enriching things, enforcing discipline, etc.

A $41K job is a responsible job that requires some skills. And yet people in this thread are acting like all families who qualify must be full of alcoholic deadbeats.

THere is nothing wrong with single mom's but do you honestly think that a single mom struglling to make 41k a year is going to have the same amount of time to devote to child rearing and discipline as 2 parents making over 150K a year?

As the daughter of a single mom who worked as a legal secretary and made the 1970's equivalent of $40K a year -- yes, yes I do. I went to public school with lots of poor kids (didn't consider myself poor), got into a magnet high school, attended a top-20 private university. My mom read to us every single night until late in elementary school. I devoured books and my brother did too. Our house had lots of limits and positive reenforcement, appropriate discipline, etc.

You seem to think that money provides some halo-like gloss that enables people to be better parents. This is really not true. I'm so sorry for you that you have this limited world view. I worry for how your kids will turn out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's be clear about the income guidelines here. According to the MCPS website, a family of 4 qualifies for FARMS if their income is below $41,000 per year. As a comparison, the median family income in the United States according to Wikipedia is $45,000 per year. So the children getting FARMS in this area are not necessarily abjectly poor.

Wow. I can tell you've never had to try to raise your kids on 41K a year ....... We have three in our family and make about this much, and I can tell you, if we didn't have outside help, there are days we wouldn't eat.

OK I'll retract this because it's being read by people as ignorance or accusation. In truth you don't know what income I have had in my past. My point was not that $41,000 is a lot around here -- I get that. In my way I was just trying to defend these families by showing that they can be working professionals and make this income and still qualify for lunch aid. In my profession 41K would be a pretty common salary. The previous posts had made the families receiving FARMS out to be all alcoholics and neglectful parents, and I had written this in an attempt to defend them in some way.

I totally get what you are saying. Someone could be an admin assistant in an office and make $41K. If that person were a single mom, her kids might get FARMS assistance but there's nothing to say she wouldn't be reading to them at night and doing other enriching things, enforcing discipline, etc.

A $41K job is a responsible job that requires some skills. And yet people in this thread are acting like all families who qualify must be full of alcoholic deadbeats.

THere is nothing wrong with single mom's but do you honestly think that a single mom struglling to make 41k a year is going to have the same amount of time to devote to child rearing and discipline as 2 parents making over 150K a year?

Anonymous wrote:Have you looked at the disaggregated data?

Review Highland View - http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02784.pdf

- Whites, grade 5, reading - 94.8
- LEP, grade 5, reading - 57.2
- FARMs, grade 4, math - 69.5
- LEP, grade 3, reading - 46.6


Students now or have in the past received FARMS (ever FARMs) - 49.9%

It makes a difference. Don't fool yourself.

Yes, I meant Highland rather than Highland View, but that's beside the point. Here is the point: exactly how does it matter to the 94.8% of white children who passed this test that only 46.6% of the limited English-speaking children in their classroom passed it?

At Bethesda Elementary, I looked up the same statistic, and white, grade 5 reading for Bethesda Elementary is 98%. It looks like those white kids are testing nearly the same despite the presence of the lower-scoring kids in their class. It's not clear the lower-scoring kids are bringing anyone down.