19:37 here.

First, thank you for not laughing me off this thread. I'm sitting here with this beautiful, bright, articulate and sweet little girl and I ask myself why I worry so much about her. I guess it just comes down to the fact that I know there is something amiss. I feel that she won't be happy unless she makes something of this awesome gift and I don't feel like the school system or I have a clue about what goes on in that head of hers.

Second, I know her working memory is good but I just wonder if the subtest score on Digit Span in 75%ile compared to all of these other amazing scores is throwing her off in some unusual way.

Third, I've looked into the Davidson program. The problem is that at her age they also want achievement testing to back up the intelligence testing and that is the missing piece with her. She turns the simplest things, like multiple choice test questions, into complex issues. She can explain in detail why she answered a question the way she did but in the end her answers are often wrong. How do we get the two in sync?

Fourth, she appears to be a rarity: an exceptionally/profoundly/whatever-you-call-it child who craves the company of her chronological peers. She still plays with dolls even as she ponders the differences between infinity and eternity; whether it's better to bomb enemies or engage them in hand-to-hand combat; or the uses of literary devices in the characters/settings in the books she reads!

Fifth, I have read the articles on the development of the brain and I'm hoping that she is that late bloomer whose brain is gong to click in the next year or so. She is definitely a late bloomer physically.

Sixth, I suspect that the few kids she has clicked with are in the same boat. I think that a lot of really bright and sweet kids are being short-cahnged in our schools because they are so different from their peers and their teachers.\

[quote=Anonymous]I've been trying to figure out my daughter since she was 18 months old and three years ago the WISC-IV was administered. I can't say that we were surprised by her scores because she is so obviously bright. The test scores do point out a relative weakness in her working memory, which again didn't surprise us. Here are her WISC-IV scores --- tested two days shy of her 8th birthday.

Verbal Comprehension -- 135 index score; 99%ile
Perceptual Reasoning -- 143 index score; 99.8%ile
Working Memory* -- 116 index score; 86%ile
Processing Speed -- 141 index score; 99.7%ile

Full Scale -- 143 index score; 99.8%ile
GAI --- 148 index score; 99.9%

* Digit Span Subtest 12 standard score; 75%ile
Letter-Numbering Sequencing Subtest--- 14 standard score; 91%ile

As I understand it the 27 point gap between her highest score (143) and her lowest (116) makes the GAI relevant. The psychologist said she hit the ceiling on 5 of the 10 subtests. She is not 2E.

It is so hard to get a handle on this child. I just don't think today's classrooms are amenable to kids like her. She hates rote memorization, writes horribly, spells worse, and is the Mrs. Malaprop of her generation with some absolutely hysterical misuses of words. She remembers what her homework is but forgets to do it! She remembers everything she's ever heard or read; talks to adults as an equal; argues vigorously; and questions endlessly. She does "well" but not great in school and the teacher really makes or breaks her school year. She has told us since she was in 2nd grade that (with the exception of a few) other kids don't get her and that they think she's weird.

Anybody have a kids like this?

[/quote]

Have you looked into the Davidson Young Scholars program? (http://www.davidsongifted.org/youngscholars/) The minimum score guidelines give a score of 145+ on the WISC-IV on at least one of the following sections: Verbal Comprehension, Perceptual Reasoning, General Ability Index (GAI), or Full Scale.

PP - her working memory scores are still really high. She's probably just bored in class and could use a different cohort. Is she in a gifted program? Perhaps try some on-line classes through CTY? And take a look at Hoagies.com.

I've been trying to figure out my daughter since she was 18 months old and three years ago the WISC-IV was administered. I can't say that we were surprised by her scores because she is so obviously bright. The test scores do point out a relative weakness in her working memory, which again didn't surprise us. Here are her WISC-IV scores --- tested two days shy of her 8th birthday.

Verbal Comprehension -- 135 index score; 99%ile
Perceptual Reasoning -- 143 index score; 99.8%ile
Working Memory* -- 116 index score; 86%ile
Processing Speed -- 141 index score; 99.7%ile

Full Scale -- 143 index score; 99.8%ile
GAI --- 148 index score; 99.9%

* Digit Span Subtest 12 standard score; 75%ile
Letter-Numbering Sequencing Subtest--- 14 standard score; 91%ile

As I understand it the 27 point gap between her highest score (143) and her lowest (116) makes the GAI relevant. The psychologist said she hit the ceiling on 5 of the 10 subtests. She is not 2E.

It is so hard to get a handle on this child. I just don't think today's classrooms are amenable to kids like her. She hates rote memorization, writes horribly, spells worse, and is the Mrs. Malaprop of her generation with some absolutely hysterical misuses of words. She remembers what her homework is but forgets to do it! She remembers everything she's ever heard or read; talks to adults as an equal; argues vigorously; and questions endlessly. She does "well" but not great in school and the teacher really makes or breaks her school year. She has told us since she was in 2nd grade that (with the exception of a few) other kids don't get her and that they think she's weird.

Anybody have a kids like this?

I have DD who has similar high verbal scores and very low processing scores. She does not have ADHD; instead, the low processing speed is likely due to the perinatal stroke she suffered and some of the work-arounds her brain has created to help her compensate. At this stage (age 4.5), she does not appear to have any learning disabilities other than the low processing speed. Does anyone know whether Lab services kids like this? She does not have apraxia and is in fact very verbal, but she takes a second or two longer than other kids to respond - not a huge amount of time but enough that kids notice and she is beginning to become aware of and embarassed by this. Obviously, I will talk to the folks at Lab this fall, but I'm wondering what others have done.
Thanks.

I don't know about cogmed but there is recent evidence that working memory programs help some kids.


atimes.com/health/la-he-iq-boost-20110614-1,0,2455553.story

latimes.com

Memory training improves intelligence in some children, report says

Brain games can help with abstract reasoning months after the training, but they work only for those who really need and enjoy the exercises, a study says.

By Melissa Healy, Los Angeles Times

June 14, 2011

advertisement

Training a child to hold a whole cluster of items in his or her memory for even a short time may feel like trying to hold a wave on the sand. But a study published Monday says it's a drill that can yield lasting benefits.

Children who've had such training have better abstract reasoning and solve problems more creatively than kids who haven't, the study found.

But here's a warning to parents already grooming their young children for entry into elite universities: Don't automatically rush out to enroll your young genius in brain-training summer camp or invest in DVDs promising to deliver high IQs. These drills, the scientists found, pay the greatest dividends for children who actually need them and who find the escalating challenge of the games fun, not frustrating.

For others, "it might be difficult if you push your kid too much," said study lead author Susanne M. Jaeggi, a psychology professor at the University of Michigan. "It's like a parent pushing a child to do sports or learn a musical instrument: There's always this delicate balance between too much or too little."

http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-iq-boost-20110614-1,0,2455553.story

Anonymous wrote:Question -- since some of you seem to know so much on this topic, and I am not 100% confident in what each test measures. Is processing speed on the WISC IV calculated based only on tests that require visual/spatial abilities? i.e., I am adult, who has a general sense of my IQ and also know I have a gap -- with average visual/spatial abilities. I don't think processing speed was a part or as an important a part of the test I would have taken. I'm just curious as to what impact that could have had on my score (and may have on my child's score when she takes the test).
also, does the gap correlate with ADD, or does the gap make one susceptible to ADD, or does the gap mean you have ADD?
Thanks.

I posted earlier about my kids, but to answer your question specifically: My son who scored in the 150's for verbal and 105 for processing speed does not have ADHD.

My DD has ADHD and her scores had fewer extremes, but she did have a very low working memory - I can't recall exactly but there was a difference of 15 or 20 points. The test was taken when she was not on meds, however.

So all that to say that big gaps could indicate an issue but might not. As PPs have said, sometimes kids with very high verbal scores process more slowly.

Are you the cogmed poster from last year?

For the person whose child scored in the 99% for perceptual reasoning and 1% for working memory, please look into CogMed working memory training for your child. It costs a couple grand but my ADHD DD went from 22% to 86% with this therapy. It took about a year for the full improvement to express. We used Dr. Shtuhl at Family Compass in Reston.

Question -- since some of you seem to know so much on this topic, and I am not 100% confident in what each test measures. Is processing speed on the WISC IV calculated based only on tests that require visual/spatial abilities? i.e., I am adult, who has a general sense of my IQ and also know I have a gap -- with average visual/spatial abilities. I don't think processing speed was a part or as an important a part of the test I would have taken. I'm just curious as to what impact that could have had on my score (and may have on my child's score when she takes the test).
also, does the gap correlate with ADD, or does the gap make one susceptible to ADD, or does the gap mean you have ADD?
Thanks.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just found this forum, been searching for answers on a similar issue. Ran into so many problems this year (5th grade) in school with executive functioning issues. We ended up pulling her out of public school early and putting her in a smaller private school to finish out the year.

Daughter's WISC-IV:

Verbal Comprehension -- 79% (112 standard score)
Perceptual Reasoning -- 99.5% (139 standard score)
Working Memory -- 1% (62 standard score)
Processing Speed -- 58% (103 standard score)

Full Scale -- 75%

Psychologist says largest descripancy she's ever seen in 30 years between two subtests. Teacher kept saying there was "no educational impact" because her grades were good even though they started to drop and she started to fall apart. She's so bright but seems to have a processing overload by the end of the day. Not ADHD, no behavioral issues -- kind of kid that falls through the cracks. Word retrieval issues though. Anyone run into this or have any thoughts? Thanks.

Again, it is irresponsible to report a FSIQ with these scores! Why are psychologists doing that? It is like taking the average of 2 and 10 (6) and then saying that 6 is the same as 2 or the same as 10. It does not offer any meaningful information and should not be written in the report. Your daughter is obviously very smart and probably a very hard worker who has implemented some of her own strategies and compensated for her processing deficit, and that is why she does not qualify for special ed. - and why she is so spent at the end of the day. It's great that she has the internal resources to be so academically successful. If she has executive functioning issues, could it be ADD (without the H)? Those are often one and the same.

I agree with most of what this poster is saying, but to clarify, the actual research literature on the predictive validity of the WISC indicates that the FSIQ is just as predictive of outcomes in cases where there are discrepancies in the profile. Many psychologists are taught not to interpret FSIQ if there are large discrepancies in the profile (saying it's just the average of different abilities), but the actual research literature does not indicate that FSIQ is more predictive in cases of low scatter. So it is not irresponsible to report it in cases of discrepancy. Here are some references:

http://www.dciu.org/92210219134445660/lib/92210219134445660/Daniel.pdf
http://www.public.asu.edu/~mwwatkin/Papers/FSIQvariability(2007).pdf

I just didn't want anyone to think that their psychologist was not thoughtful about the testing if they did interpret the FSIQ in the context of a discrepancy.

Anonymous wrote:Keep in mind that processing speeds can also be low because young children aren't used to "timed" tests yet or finishing tasks in a prescribed amount of time. This seems to affect boys more than girls.

On another note, how do you calculate the GAI with the information from a WISC? Is it merely an average or is there a formula?

You use only the subtest scale scores from the VCI and PRI and convert them to the GAI

To calculate the GAI you need the scaled subtest scores from the VCI and the PRI.

The General Ability Sum of Scaled Scores is the sum of scaled scores for three Verbal Comprehension subtests (i.e., Vocabulary, Comprehension, and Similarities) and three Perceptual Reasoning subtests (i.e., Block Design, Matrix Reasoning, and Picture Concepts).

http://www.ksde.org/Portals/0/Special%20Education%20Services/gifted/WISCIVTechReport4.pdf

Keep in mind that processing speeds can also be low because young children aren't used to "timed" tests yet or finishing tasks in a prescribed amount of time. This seems to affect boys more than girls.

On another note, how do you calculate the GAI with the information from a WISC? Is it merely an average or is there a formula?

I'm one of the PPs above who posted about DS with high verbal and low processing scores -- PP suggested ADHD and yes, I wanted to confirm that DS was diagnosed with ADHD. Stimulant meds definitely helped the processing speed but were not a long-term solution due to the side effects of weight loss and sleep issues.

I am now trying to figure out strategies for MS situation where the child will have a personal laptop to use to help with executive function and processing (all kids will have them). I'm sure that the laptop can be assistive in many ways.

Also I am sure that my DS was sometimes bored in elementary school while also overwhelmed with processing at the same time-- to me that is the perfect storm for goofing around in class... I'm hopeful that the next school will "feed" him more intellectually which I think could help him stay on task better. To top it all off, DS is most likely gay. We don't know for sure, of course, but the signs are all there. I think subconsciously he spends a lot of processing capacity that could be spent on say... math!... and instead spends it on figuring out how to best fit in and not outing himself as different than other boys. Sometimes I'm surprised DS learned anything at all this year.