Anonymous wrote:The poster did not say she forces her child to work for 45 minutes. Nice distortion, though.

As for the sense of accomplishment crack about not remembering when they are older-is this for real? Why have ANY experience with your young children then, if they are just going to forget it. The point is not that they remember the specifics, but that they are having opportunities to build healthy esteem and productivity.

Some of you sound like you are really struggling with the balance between over and under parenting. Neither are good.

No she didn't and neither did I. She said that she "pushes" her child to do "adult" tasks and that is exactly the wording that I used.

The poster did not say she forces her child to work for 45 minutes. Nice distortion, though.

As for the sense of accomplishment crack about not remembering when they are older-is this for real? Why have ANY experience with your young children then, if they are just going to forget it. The point is not that they remember the specifics, but that they are having opportunities to build healthy esteem and productivity.

Some of you sound like you are really struggling with the balance between over and under parenting. Neither are good.

Anonymous wrote:I was like you. I believe the psychological term is "parentified." I am very happy that my kids are completely immature and act like kids. But that is usually the case with the children of people like you and me who were forced to act like little adults from a young age and, in my case, to be the the parent of my parents.

I was sent to a boaring school when I was five. Thanks, now I know what one of my problems is. Actually, I just thought this was the way everybody was brought up.

Anonymous wrote:omg

Kid's 2.

cracks me up how this "sense of accomplishment" is so important when you know years later they won't remember a damn thing

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't buy the theory. I would describe my kids as very mature and independent for their age, but I also describe myself as a borderline helicopter parent. The difference is that I push them to do adult things, but I'm always right there to support them. For example, my almost-3yo daily does big-kid chores like setting the table, putting away laundry, taking out recycling, loading the dishwasher, helping with meals, etc., but for the most part I am right beside him. And my kids regularly play work out disagreements over toys, etc. without my help, but always with me within earshot, so that they can bounce off me for help, or I can step in if things get out of hand. So, while I agree that there are parents who borderline neglect their kids and then congratulate themselves on valuing independence, I think it's both unfair and unwise to tar anyone who values independence with the same brush.

Your 2 yo can load the dishwasher and take out recyclables? Unassisted?

Sometimes helicopter parents have parentified kids too. One of the signs is that kids are pushed to do adult tasks before they are ready. Chores are great but too many responsibilities at a young age are a big red flag.

First PP here. As I said, I am right there, so it is a controled environment (i.e., I load all glass and sharp knives, DS does all the plastic and metal dishes and cutlery, DS is in charge of gathering all recyclables, I carry it to the curb). To the latter PP, I think it's wonderful for kids to have a sense of accomplishment and knowing that they are capable. I am all for free play and relaxation, in fact, my kids switxh days being the designated helper, so if one spends 45 minutes cooking and cleaning with me, not only does that child get time one on one with me and hands-on tasks, the other child gets 45 minutes of uninterupted play without sibling or parent commenting on or interfereing with play. I schedule time in the day for my kids to follow their own interests because I want them to have the freedom of childhood, but I also schedule time working, because I want them to have the confidence and self-esteem of knowing that they have mastered a task. Anyone who has heard a child exclaim with glee, "I did it!" should know that pushing a child to master as much as they can of the world around them doesn't stifle childhood, it gives children the keys to their personal kingdom.

It's kind of funny but it's kind of sad too. It seems very neurotic to me to make a 2 year-old work for 45 minutes. I have a child that age (this is my third child) and she doesn't have the type of attention span that would allow anything to be fun for 45 minutes. That's very typical for her age too. Maybe playdough or swimming but certainly not housework. Also, this woman freely admits to "pushing" the kid. I'm thinking that if the kid is really excited about doing the work and feels a great sense of accomplishment, it's because the mom is putting a lot of pressure on her and is giving her so much praise when she does it right. She also says that the other kid is being ignored while playing. So, in effect, they get to take turns being in mommy's favor. It's hard to imagine that any of this is healthy. I am all for teaching responsibilities and giving kids age appropriate chores but come on... this is over the top.

omg

Kid's 2.

cracks me up how this "sense of accomplishment" is so important when you know years later they won't remember a damn thing

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't buy the theory. I would describe my kids as very mature and independent for their age, but I also describe myself as a borderline helicopter parent. The difference is that I push them to do adult things, but I'm always right there to support them. For example, my almost-3yo daily does big-kid chores like setting the table, putting away laundry, taking out recycling, loading the dishwasher, helping with meals, etc., but for the most part I am right beside him. And my kids regularly play work out disagreements over toys, etc. without my help, but always with me within earshot, so that they can bounce off me for help, or I can step in if things get out of hand. So, while I agree that there are parents who borderline neglect their kids and then congratulate themselves on valuing independence, I think it's both unfair and unwise to tar anyone who values independence with the same brush.

Your 2 yo can load the dishwasher and take out recyclables? Unassisted?

Sometimes helicopter parents have parentified kids too. One of the signs is that kids are pushed to do adult tasks before they are ready. Chores are great but too many responsibilities at a young age are a big red flag.

First PP here. As I said, I am right there, so it is a controled environment (i.e., I load all glass and sharp knives, DS does all the plastic and metal dishes and cutlery, DS is in charge of gathering all recyclables, I carry it to the curb). To the latter PP, I think it's wonderful for kids to have a sense of accomplishment and knowing that they are capable. I am all for free play and relaxation, in fact, my kids switxh days being the designated helper, so if one spends 45 minutes cooking and cleaning with me, not only does that child get time one on one with me and hands-on tasks, the other child gets 45 minutes of uninterupted play without sibling or parent commenting on or interfereing with play. I schedule time in the day for my kids to follow their own interests because I want them to have the freedom of childhood, but I also schedule time working, because I want them to have the confidence and self-esteem of knowing that they have mastered a task. Anyone who has heard a child exclaim with glee, "I did it!" should know that pushing a child to master as much as they can of the world around them doesn't stifle childhood, it gives children the keys to their personal kingdom.

Anonymous wrote:

wow, you are really misguided. Yes, its great when a little kids says "I did it!" but you should want them to say that in relation to do things that are appropriate for their age like completeing a hard puzzle or reading their first book or throwing a good pitch. Those are the things to do to build confidence and self-esteem with young kids.

I don't think it's misguided at all. There's a lot of research that shows kids build self-esteem and connectivity with caregivers better when they are mastering "real" tasks. Sometimes that is play, but kids are very interested in what adults are doing amd including them in those tasks is a great way to bond and a great self-esteem exercise.

For those who object to kids being "forced" to do "adult" things (and my kids love helping around the house because they like being included in the lives of the grownups) at what age is it magically age-appropriate for kids to learn to wash dishes instead of play with a water table? Or prepare real food instead of play with a tea set? I really don't see how it's great parenting to sit and teach my child how to braid Barbie's hair but I'm robbing them of childhood if I teach them how to brush their own hair. As long as the child is having fun, I don't see the harm in letting my kids master skills that will actually be useful. At what age are kids allowed to be productive human beings?

I agree with you and 3 is not too young to do things like you have described. She didn't say she told the 3 year old, get the recycling bag, tie it up, put on your shoes and take it out to the curb. I'm betting what she does might include having her 3 year old "help" take out the bag and "help" tie it up and "help" carry it out. It would probably be faster for her to do it herself but I'm guessing she is probably trying to teach her child that every person in the family has to help out.

As someone said there is middle ground that is usually the best place to be. Unfortunately, myself included, we don't always hit perfection. Yes I want my children to have time to be children, but if you wait until they are 15, 16, 17, 18 to teach them responsibility they most likely won't get it. Why should they, they had parents who always did it for them.

Reading this thread has made me rethink some of the ways I have had my oldest help me with our youngest. A reminder to me that I need to go a little for the middle ground with him and his little brother.

Anonymous wrote:Wow. I grew up parenting my parents because of their disabilities. And my kids are way more mature than other kids - not because I try to make them so - just the opposite. They are just savvy, smart, know how to read people, know how to judge strangers (even adults), know how to communicate to all age groups, and HATE hanging around with boring whiny kids who are clingy and can't think for themselves. I think this is a good thing and has nothing to do with me ignoring them or torturing them. They are street smart by nature. That's a really good thing, trust me.

OP Here - No, young kids are NOT savvy and smart enough to judge adults or to read adult intentions. Leaving your kids to do these things by themselves makes them even more vulnerable. It gets very tiring emotionally and mentally to always being on guard and trying to make these judgments for yourself as a kid. It was actually exhausting at times and yes I also didn't play with younger kids - mostly because I didn't have the energy because I had so many other things to worry about - mainly taking care of myself. All it take is for one adult who is nice and seems great and the kid finally feels like they can relax and let an adult be in charge and then guess what? The adult takes advantage of that in a bad way.

A PP pointed out that your child is having to make mature decisions no that the child is actually mature enough in judgment to make them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here and its nice to know that others went through the same. And yes, I do tend to overcompensate with my own child but I am ok with that. I knew scores of kids by college who were not like me and they did ok. I think its fine to grow up at 16, 17 and 18 and there is no need to do it at 8, 9, 10...

21:15 - my kid is 6 almost 7 and its becoming a phrase I hear more often amongst parents of my kid's friends.

21:47 - agree...I don't think "mature" is a positive term for young child

21:65 "The difference is that I push them to do adult things," ... why do you feel the need
to push a 3 yr old to do adult things? Do you think when they are an adult they will run out
of years to do them??? Really, there is no need to do that. And there is a difference between
having your kid help with household chores for fun as opposed to expecting the child to actually
take on those tasks themselves on a day to day basis.

21:58 - yes, that's very true so much energy as a child went into having to basically raise myself
that creativity and the like went out the window.

22:39 - I can relate - many movies and books that I was exposed to as a young kid were just so inapproriate.

22:45 - that's terrible, I am sorry that happened to your DH. I was always hypervigilant about adults who wanted
to help me in anyway. Sadly, my mom warned me about adults who would take advantage of kids but she didn't seem to
realize that her actions made me all the more vulnerable to those adults. You are right- when adults find kids where
they know parent involvment is lacking they tend to see them as easy victims.

OP, how is this even possible?

Not the OP, but kids like this know they can't rely on their parents for help with anything because they are the ones helping their parents (with the chores in the house, with siblings, with their own needs, with their parents' emotional needs). When a kid like this gets assaulted by someone, they generally don't tell their parents, because what can/will their parents do when the parents can't/don't even take care of themselves or their kids and react to unpredictable or unpleasant events with anger and violence. When a child has oriented him or herself toward doing everything possible not to rock the boat or draw unwanted parental attention toward him or herself, they will err on the side of what looks like caution by not telling. Predators can tell by how a child responds to initial interactions what's most likely to happen, and the patterns of behavior are pretty clear when you observe these children around their parents (or see that they're out on their own and minimally supervised). Or, in the case of my parents, they make a totally inappropriate choice about a babysitter and basically hand their kids over on a platter.

Also not the OP but I would add that OP seems to be making the point that actions speak louder than words. You can warn a child about bad grown ups but if you don't supervise your child or teach your child to respect herself and her own personal boundaries, then you are not protecting your child from sexual predators or other abusers.

I'm glad the thread got back to what it was about. To the posters who claim it is appropriate to let small children do "chores" -- a chore is something the child does to contribute his or her share to the running of the household. They are age-appropriate tasks that the kids can do themselves, so the parents don't have to do them. It is them pulling some of their weight -- and that is where the self-confidence and satisfaction comes from. To let your kids splash in the sink with the dirty dishes is just as much fun as playing in a water table, as the PP said, and it is certainly NOT a chore. Helping someone else take out the trash is also not a chore; taking out the trash while the parent does something else would be the chore. These are things you kids can do when they are older. A chore for small child would be something like putting their own shoes in the closet or hanging their own coat on a hook when they come home -- because they can do it themselves and be responsible for it themselves.

Just a reality check for the parents who think their children are getting satisfaction from doing chores rather than just having fun playing, which is what they are really doing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here and its nice to know that others went through the same. And yes, I do tend to overcompensate with my own child but I am ok with that. I knew scores of kids by college who were not like me and they did ok. I think its fine to grow up at 16, 17 and 18 and there is no need to do it at 8, 9, 10...

21:15 - my kid is 6 almost 7 and its becoming a phrase I hear more often amongst parents of my kid's friends.

21:47 - agree...I don't think "mature" is a positive term for young child

21:65 "The difference is that I push them to do adult things," ... why do you feel the need
to push a 3 yr old to do adult things? Do you think when they are an adult they will run out
of years to do them??? Really, there is no need to do that. And there is a difference between
having your kid help with household chores for fun as opposed to expecting the child to actually
take on those tasks themselves on a day to day basis.

21:58 - yes, that's very true so much energy as a child went into having to basically raise myself
that creativity and the like went out the window.

22:39 - I can relate - many movies and books that I was exposed to as a young kid were just so inapproriate.

22:45 - that's terrible, I am sorry that happened to your DH. I was always hypervigilant about adults who wanted
to help me in anyway. Sadly, my mom warned me about adults who would take advantage of kids but she didn't seem to
realize that her actions made me all the more vulnerable to those adults. You are right- when adults find kids where
they know parent involvment is lacking they tend to see them as easy victims.

OP, how is this even possible?

Not the OP, but kids like this know they can't rely on their parents for help with anything because they are the ones helping their parents (with the chores in the house, with siblings, with their own needs, with their parents' emotional needs). When a kid like this gets assaulted by someone, they generally don't tell their parents, because what can/will their parents do when the parents can't/don't even take care of themselves or their kids and react to unpredictable or unpleasant events with anger and violence. When a child has oriented him or herself toward doing everything possible not to rock the boat or draw unwanted parental attention toward him or herself, they will err on the side of what looks like caution by not telling. Predators can tell by how a child responds to initial interactions what's most likely to happen, and the patterns of behavior are pretty clear when you observe these children around their parents (or see that they're out on their own and minimally supervised). Or, in the case of my parents, they make a totally inappropriate choice about a babysitter and basically hand their kids over on a platter.

I was also parentified, physically abused by my parents, and then molested by other older kids (who clearly had problems in their own homes). I agree that it's a flag to me when I see kids who have already learned by age 7 or 8 that the way to please their parents is to be a quiet mini-adult. Everyone praised me and my parents for how well-behaved and mature I was, but it's because I was always trying to avoid my parents' unpredictable rages (which did not always or automatically stop when out in public).

That being said, I was also a kid who liked to do puzzles and read books and was often quite happy to be left in peace to do so for hours on end. (Of course, sometimes the reading material was Stephen King at age 11 because I wasn't being supervised, but not always.) I gravitated toward older kids not only because I was old for my age based on my experiences but also because I was interested in things that were a bit ahead of my age (healthy things, like being able to ride my bike farther from home or wanting to help take care of the horses that belonged to the family down the road or participate in creating an ice-skating rink in the empty field near our houses in the winter, etc.).

For me, it's the combination of the need for approval from adults and being mature for your age that is the flag for me. I don't know how I'll respond when my child is older and these kids are his peers, but as a friend-of-the-parents or a neighbor, I'm very sympathetic and try to create space to let the kid have some non-demanding adult attention and let them be a kid. For example, I'll watch our acquaintances' kid and we'll work in the garden or cook together or go to the pool, and I try to model a way of hanging out that doesn't have me breathing down his neck. It's harder as kids get older, because it takes more for them to let their guard down and snap out of that mode of being.

Anonymous wrote:OP here and its nice to know that others went through the same. And yes, I do tend to overcompensate with my own child but I am ok with that. I knew scores of kids by college who were not like me and they did ok. I think its fine to grow up at 16, 17 and 18 and there is no need to do it at 8, 9, 10...

21:15 - my kid is 6 almost 7 and its becoming a phrase I hear more often amongst parents of my kid's friends.

21:47 - agree...I don't think "mature" is a positive term for young child

21:65 "The difference is that I push them to do adult things," ... why do you feel the need
to push a 3 yr old to do adult things? Do you think when they are an adult they will run out
of years to do them??? Really, there is no need to do that. And there is a difference between
having your kid help with household chores for fun as opposed to expecting the child to actually
take on those tasks themselves on a day to day basis.

21:58 - yes, that's very true so much energy as a child went into having to basically raise myself
that creativity and the like went out the window.

22:39 - I can relate - many movies and books that I was exposed to as a young kid were just so inapproriate.

22:45 - that's terrible, I am sorry that happened to your DH. I was always hypervigilant about adults who wanted
to help me in anyway. Sadly, my mom warned me about adults who would take advantage of kids but she didn't seem to
realize that her actions made me all the more vulnerable to those adults. You are right- when adults find kids where
they know parent involvment is lacking they tend to see them as easy victims.

OP, how is this even possible?

I see many kids (not mine) who are mature and independent.

Maturity is not created solely out of neglect. You are projecting your personal experience.

It is partly the nature of some children. And it can be encouraged by giving children opportunity to make their own choices and responsibilities that go with that freedom. Even though my kids are not this way, I can see it in other children.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow. I grew up parenting my parents because of their disabilities. And my kids are way more mature than other kids - not because I try to make them so - just the opposite. They are just savvy, smart, know how to read people, know how to judge strangers (even adults), know how to communicate to all age groups, and HATE hanging around with boring whiny kids who are clingy and can't think for themselves. I think this is a good thing and has nothing to do with me ignoring them or torturing them. They are street smart by nature. That's a really good thing, trust me.

Headed for trouble.

Yeah, seriously. It sounds like the mom here has some real issues with kids who act like kids. I would be very concerned about these children.

I think everyone in this discussion needs to take a step back and realize that there is nothing wrong with a child doing some chores BUT there is a point at which teaching children to act like little adults becomes excessive. I don't know if the person who does 45 minutes of housework with her two year-old is a good parent or not. To me, it sounds like it could be excessive for a child that age. I was actually more concerned about the language she was using to describe the activities. For instance, she said that she "pushes" her children and that they are "adult" for their age. To me, these sounds like red flags for parentification. There is a difference between learning to do tasks, especially in a Montessori setting, and being "pushed" to do "adult" things. But I don't know this woman and I hope she is really just having fun with her kids and doing it because they like it.

Parentification usually involves either parental neglect or parental emotional neediness and I actually experienced both of these things. I had to emotionally support my parents and emotional boundaries were not respected in any way. My parents were divorced and at times they treated me as a friend or partner. I was their confidant, I knew way too much about their personal problems and sex lives, and I was constantly praised for my "maturity." They also loved to take credit for my maturity, partly because my brother was mentally ill and they were not proud of him.

OP and I, and some of the other posters here experienced real parentification which is painful and damaging for kids so maybe we are overly sensitive to a few words like "mature" and "little adult" which were used to describe kids like us. This is nothing for a parent to brag about. My suggestion, if you are using these words to describe your kids, would be to at least consider why you are so happy about these qualities. I am not saying that everyone who uses these words is making the same mistakes my parents did but it doesn't hurt to think about this stuff a little bit.