Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

Over 280 University of California STEM faculty members have signed an open letter calling on the UC Board of Regents to reinstate the SAT and ACT in admissions.

The surprising thing is that it has taken 6 years for the professors to finally speak up against test optional.

I feel so badly for all the brilliant kids who lost spots to test optional kids who were wholly unqualified since the test optional performative idiocy took hold in 2020-21

They’re fine and don’t need your pity.

Anonymous wrote:Combat k-12 grade inflation and you wouldn’t need this at all. Seriously, Berkeley takes in a ton of transfers with no sat scores, who still excel. Why are they doing well? Because their community college gpa has actually meaning and has rigor behind it.

It is deeply disturbing that so many people don’t see the issue that so many California teens are graduating without 8th grade foundational mathematical talent, but their first reaction is to throw a test on the admissions process. What need to happen is the standards need to be upheld in the first place!

Cal alum here. Not true.

Anonymous wrote:To all those saying "don't bring back the SAT, just fix the education system!" - what specific reforms do you have in mind, and what kind of time frame are we talking? Because the UC system is bleeding reputation day by day by day... Tick tick.

The UC system is fine. I’m serious. Most posters here have no connection to California and obsess over prestige when it comes to the UC system. What they don’t realize is for decades the attrition was multiples of what it is now. Almost every student who entered the UC leaves with a degree.

Now, California has so many issues in its k-12 system that it find a perfect solution may well take a few decades. For one, we as a country messed up by making tracking illegal. But the quickest reform that could be made and financially supported (40% of the state budget is education btw) is holding students back. But to do that, we need standards in the first place. The integrated math curriculum needs to be eliminated. The UC system should develop a standardized exam in line with whatever new California standards are created. Invest more in a rural teachers program. Every school in the state should have calculus and other liberal arts advanced courses. Cities with schools that fail to deliver so should be threatened and show persistent effort in hiring. Give less power to parents and more power to teachers in terms of behavior. Evaluate grading with standardized testing performance and evaluate teachers with strong standard deviation issues. Raise the hell out of the bar for minimum “meets grade” and advanced achievement on state exams. Institute a minimum state exam score to apply to the UC system.

Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

The really do not care about undergraduate education. Modern research universities are graduate schools first and research is what faculty gets paid on, not teaching.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

Over 280 University of California STEM faculty members have signed an open letter calling on the UC Board of Regents to reinstate the SAT and ACT in admissions.

The surprising thing is that it has taken 6 years for the professors to finally speak up against test optional.

I feel so badly for all the brilliant kids who lost spots to test optional kids who were wholly unqualified since the test optional performative idiocy took hold in 2020-21

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

Unfortunately California produces so few well-qualified black and Hispanic students in California public high schools that while the SAT might give them a better, fighting chance, at selecting a decent student, it will never be implemented. The cry of help from faculty and isn't just from the math faculty, it's across all STEM disciplines. This endeavor will run into the inevitable political brick wall and go nowhere. The mission of UC's officially states that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is the critical component underlying scholarship and research. The UC's will not stray from that mission.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

Over 280 University of California STEM faculty members have signed an open letter calling on the UC Board of Regents to reinstate the SAT and ACT in admissions.

Wow they must have read that other public universities ranking thread, worked huh?

To all those saying "don't bring back the SAT, just fix the education system!" - what specific reforms do you have in mind, and what kind of time frame are we talking? Because the UC system is bleeding reputation day by day by day... Tick tick.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

You think 280 STEM professors at Berkeley isn't a lot? That's half the total STEM faculty.

It's 280 all over the UC system, not just Berkeley.

Not all professors agree with this. I don’t know why they’re recommending the SAT when the UC system was supposed to be developing its own rigorous exam designed by UC faculty.

They looked into the CAASPP as an alternative. The CAASPP is California's state-wide academic barometer test given to different grades, like 8th, 11th. The same racial disparities that afflicted the SAT were found in the CAASPP. The use of standardized testing is a very sensitive one in California because there is the belief that white supremacy has infected the entirety of how academic achievement is measured and that whatever path California takes has to be completely distinct from all past iterations.

The UC system looked at developing its own test but decided against it.

The system went test optional over the objections of Faculty, the Faculty Commission that was tasked with reviewing the SAT found that it was a better predicator of success in college when viewed in conjunction with grades, than grades alone, and should be continued to be used. The UC Board of Overseers overruled them for political reasons.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

100% sounds like they need to do an audit on California’s public education system.

Apologies. Scratch that. No audit needed. Sounds like they need to hold students back and put failing schools on probation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

100% sounds like they need to do an audit on California’s public education system.

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

You think 280 STEM professors at Berkeley isn't a lot? That's half the total STEM faculty.

It's 280 all over the UC system, not just Berkeley.

Not all professors agree with this. I don’t know why they’re recommending the SAT when the UC system was supposed to be developing its own rigorous exam designed by UC faculty.

They looked into the CAASPP as an alternative. The CAASPP is California's state-wide academic barometer test given to different grades, like 8th, 11th. The same racial disparities that afflicted the SAT were found in the CAASPP. The use of standardized testing is a very sensitive one in California because there is the belief that white supremacy has infected the entirety of how academic achievement is measured and that whatever path California takes has to be completely distinct from all past iterations.

The UC system looked at developing its own test but decided against it.

And that’s their problem. I don’t doubt UC admissions when they say they have data on each high school spanning decades. Developing their own test means an ability to accurately assess where the skill gaps remain in California public schools and having a quantifiable way to make recommendations rather than throwing out “x% of students failed and aren’t ready.”

Gaps will always exist, because income isn’t uniform across racial lines. We need to get past the inequality part and start solutions. The SAT is alright- it really leaves a lot to be desired in terms of rigor and substance over form.

It's more than income. Black students from the highest earning families score about the same as white students from the lowest earning families on the SAT. If you waved a magic wand and blew away the racial income gap, the SAT gap would narrow slightly but not disappear. The problem is more intractable than most people realize.

When affirmative action was around, liberals tended to support it because they were in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured it was just a small thumb on the scale. Conservatives tended to oppose it because they were also in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured URMs could just work a little harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Both were wrong, and the UC system is finding out the hard way.

There’s a lot of research showing that these gaps close when you have the white and black student in the same school. The gap explains a difference in choices by upper middle class black and white parents, not an inherent gap by race (which would imply black people are dumber).

One can spout all day about how these issues are cultural, but I find this unproductive and divisive. Everyone of every income level can do calculus I, as long as their brains aren’t pan fried by some intellectual disability. Learning algebra isn’t unique to white and Asian people; it’s something we should all feel comfortable doing, but don’t because we’ve been fed divisive lies about ability, talent, and yes victimhood.
-black person whose major required calculus in every course.

+1. Reminds me of a talk I went to by Glenn Loury

The only message conservatives have figured out to tell the black mother living off food assistant and public housing is “BE ASIAN! BE JEWISH”…are you serious? No wonder they hate you