Think of all the good things the money being spent on expensive yield management software could be funding. Such as lower tuition. Or scholarships. Or rock climbing walls (kidding).

College admissions has become an exercise in statistics and game theory. Which is awful.

Slate is a CRM. It has a Reader function. AOs at schools that don’t use demonstrated interest won’t waste time leaving the Reader to go look at the communication data.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do kids apply to any safety school? If all else fails, it could be the best available option.

Top students shouldn’t use schools like Syracuse and BC as safeties. Even if they get in, there will be very few other strong students at the school, because the school actively turns such students away. They’d be better off at a state flagship where at least there will be top in-state kids.

Please tell us more about BC having very few strong students.

Please tell me how a strong student could possibly get into BC. Everyone in this thread says that their scores and grades disqualify them, because BC cares more about yield!

They get in ED1 and ED2. By regular decision BC only takes middle-of-the-class kids from most privates. They waitlist or decline the strongest kids.

In my experience NEU and Case Western also operate this way. Not to say that they don't take some of the strongest kids but the bulk are a step down stat/strength of application-wise.

With more and more of the class being filled by Early Decision for many of these schools (more than half and sometimes 2/3rds), this is more and more common. Schools know that a 1580 SAT, 4.0, 15 APs, national award winner will have options. BC, Case, Northeastern, pretty much every college outside the HYPSM Ivy plus bucket will accept this student in a heartbeat if they knew the student would attend. That's where they rely on their modeling of the student. Northeastern in particular leans heavily into this, they all do really, since it is in their interest. If you're Northeastern and the choice is between a 1510 SAT 3.9 GPA student from a high school who sends 4 students a year, has visited the school, did webinars, opened links, and wrote his common app about working in a job, you would be derelict if you chose the higher stat national award winner who never visited the site.

Or if the student attends a catholic school in Pennsylvania, plays a team sport, has a 3.95 with 1520 SAT, and his EC's are in business. Would you offer admission to this student if you're BC versus the 1580 SAT national award winner?

Anonymous wrote:OK. Let's say a kid with 1600 and 4.0 applies to Syracuse or some other non-TT school and demonstrates interest (visits campus, clicks on e-mails, etc.). Then that kid should get in, even though they are theoretically over-qualified?

I am new to this process and trying to figure it out. Remembering how I basically wrote a check and hit a button on the Common App 30+ years ago and was accepted to a very elite school that I had shown no interest in. And did not attend, though if a few of the schools I did get into had fallen through, I legitimately would have investigated it more seriously and considered it over my safeties.

No one really knows what the result would be for this hypothetical student. The likelihood of yield may be very low via algorithm. No one really knows if it's possible to overcome that by clicks, visit, essays. This is why schools that consider interest cannot be safeties, categorically, and admissions reputation for yield management of high stats students should matters when you make the list - you would put Syracuse in the target category rather than safety.

OK. Let's say a kid with 1600 and 4.0 applies to Syracuse or some other non-TT school and demonstrates interest (visits campus, clicks on e-mails, etc.). Then that kid should get in, even though they are theoretically over-qualified?

I am new to this process and trying to figure it out. Remembering how I basically wrote a check and hit a button on the Common App 30+ years ago and was accepted to a very elite school that I had shown no interest in. And did not attend, though if a few of the schools I did get into had fallen through, I legitimately would have investigated it more seriously and considered it over my safeties.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do kids apply to any safety school? If all else fails, it could be the best available option.

Top students shouldn’t use schools like Syracuse and BC as safeties. Even if they get in, there will be very few other strong students at the school, because the school actively turns such students away. They’d be better off at a state flagship where at least there will be top in-state kids.

Please tell us more about BC having very few strong students.

Please tell me how a strong student could possibly get into BC. Everyone in this thread says that their scores and grades disqualify them, because BC cares more about yield!

They get in ED1 and ED2. By regular decision BC only takes middle-of-the-class kids from most privates. They waitlist or decline the strongest kids.

In my experience NEU and Case Western also operate this way. Not to say that they don't take some of the strongest kids but the bulk are a step down stat/strength of application-wise.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do kids apply to any safety school? If all else fails, it could be the best available option.

Top students shouldn’t use schools like Syracuse and BC as safeties. Even if they get in, there will be very few other strong students at the school, because the school actively turns such students away. They’d be better off at a state flagship where at least there will be top in-state kids.

Please tell us more about BC having very few strong students.

Please tell me how a strong student could possibly get into BC. Everyone in this thread says that their scores and grades disqualify them, because BC cares more about yield!

They get in ED1 and ED2. By regular decision BC only takes middle-of-the-class kids from most privates. They waitlist or decline the strongest kids.

No connection to BC but this isn’t true.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do kids apply to any safety school? If all else fails, it could be the best available option.

Top students shouldn’t use schools like Syracuse and BC as safeties. Even if they get in, there will be very few other strong students at the school, because the school actively turns such students away. They’d be better off at a state flagship where at least there will be top in-state kids.

Please tell us more about BC having very few strong students.

Please tell me how a strong student could possibly get into BC. Everyone in this thread says that their scores and grades disqualify them, because BC cares more about yield!

They get in ED1 and ED2. By regular decision BC only takes middle-of-the-class kids from most privates. They waitlist or decline the strongest kids.

Ok, and how many top students are committing to BC without first trying for Georgetown, Notre Dame, or some other T25?

That’s your pool of strong students at BC: a small group of kids with the stats to apply higher who were too unambitious to try. It’s a straightforward consequence of the way they conduct admissions. They’re perfectly free to do so, of course, but it traps them in a middle ground with very few strong students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do kids apply to any safety school? If all else fails, it could be the best available option.

Top students shouldn’t use schools like Syracuse and BC as safeties. Even if they get in, there will be very few other strong students at the school, because the school actively turns such students away. They’d be better off at a state flagship where at least there will be top in-state kids.

Please tell us more about BC having very few strong students.

Please tell me how a strong student could possibly get into BC. Everyone in this thread says that their scores and grades disqualify them, because BC cares more about yield!

Every college cares about yield. Demonstrated interest is only one subset of how yield is scored.

The PP is correct, if BC is the top choice, apply ED. BC is never a safety, even in ED, but that's because it's acceptance rate even in ED - while relatively high in the 40s - is still too low for safety territory. Syracuse has much bigger yield concerns.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just for kicks, please list the basic stats (or whatever else you want) of schools that your kid should have statistically gotten into but didn't.

I'll start:

School: Syracuse
GPA: 3.81 unweighted (DC private)
SAT: 1510

I’d reject this kid too. Why would they be applying to Syracuse??

They spent the time and money to apply. Assume they want to go there.

The money for many is trivial. The time, also. A few tweaks of an essay. For a school like Syracuse, when you get to the 18th college on your common app and you have a couple of free ones to go, why not just apply? Silly, but AO's know this game.

The strong but not T15 private colleges have to play this game, too. You don't think the AO's at BC, Wake, USC, Northeastern, BU, Tufts, Emory, etc. can't sniff out who is really interested in the school from someone like the OP? They track pixels on your email, time spent on their portal, engagement with webinairs, history of your high school, visits, SAT bands who have been accepted before, etc.. They have an entire software system set up to analyze demonstrated interest and likelihood of attending- and it is only getting more sophisticated.

When you get to the next tier below- GWU, Miami, Syracuse, TCU, SMU, Santa Clara they usually can't be (and aren't) that picky. In OPs case, the AO in charge of the file sounds like they should get a bonus.

Can you say more about this? What do you mean they track pixels? How can they tell about time spent on their website?

If you google SLATE, Salesforce Education Cloud, you'll see. The pixels are one of the oldest ways to track someone. There are more sophisticated ways, but pixels are the easiest. You would be amazed and appalled if you had a look behind the curtain at how this part of admissions works.

And a kid "that smart" can understand this and do everything possible to "show interest". Not difficult to do, especially nowadays that it can all be done virtually. Syracuse has a "why Syracuse" supplemental. Make that awesome as well. The OP kid likely didn't do all of that. But it's on the kid to show their "safety" schools that they are number one choices....it's okay to fake/lie in these cases, it's your job to convince the school you want to attend.

Just highlighting the claim that for a top student to get into college, they must be willing and able to lie. Is this a common view, that it is necessary to lie to get into college, even at a religious school like BC that purports to have ethical standards?

DP. BC does not consider level of applicant's interest. At least in theory. That doesn't mean they don't use algorithms for yield management - every college, including top colleges that theoretically don't consider demonstrated interest, will consider whether the applicant is likely to yield.

Demonstrates interest via visits and supplemental essays is only a small part of likelihood of yield. Do not underestimate the amount of data and mathematical modeling involved.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do kids apply to any safety school? If all else fails, it could be the best available option.

Top students shouldn’t use schools like Syracuse and BC as safeties. Even if they get in, there will be very few other strong students at the school, because the school actively turns such students away. They’d be better off at a state flagship where at least there will be top in-state kids.

Please tell us more about BC having very few strong students.

Please tell me how a strong student could possibly get into BC. Everyone in this thread says that their scores and grades disqualify them, because BC cares more about yield!

They get in ED1 and ED2. By regular decision BC only takes middle-of-the-class kids from most privates. They waitlist or decline the strongest kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do kids apply to any safety school? If all else fails, it could be the best available option.

Top students shouldn’t use schools like Syracuse and BC as safeties. Even if they get in, there will be very few other strong students at the school, because the school actively turns such students away. They’d be better off at a state flagship where at least there will be top in-state kids.

Please tell us more about BC having very few strong students.

Please tell me how a strong student could possibly get into BC. Everyone in this thread says that their scores and grades disqualify them, because BC cares more about yield!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just for kicks, please list the basic stats (or whatever else you want) of schools that your kid should have statistically gotten into but didn't.

I'll start:

School: Syracuse
GPA: 3.81 unweighted (DC private)
SAT: 1510

I’d reject this kid too. Why would they be applying to Syracuse??

They spent the time and money to apply. Assume they want to go there.

The money for many is trivial. The time, also. A few tweaks of an essay. For a school like Syracuse, when you get to the 18th college on your common app and you have a couple of free ones to go, why not just apply? Silly, but AO's know this game.

The strong but not T15 private colleges have to play this game, too. You don't think the AO's at BC, Wake, USC, Northeastern, BU, Tufts, Emory, etc. can't sniff out who is really interested in the school from someone like the OP? They track pixels on your email, time spent on their portal, engagement with webinairs, history of your high school, visits, SAT bands who have been accepted before, etc.. They have an entire software system set up to analyze demonstrated interest and likelihood of attending- and it is only getting more sophisticated.

When you get to the next tier below- GWU, Miami, Syracuse, TCU, SMU, Santa Clara they usually can't be (and aren't) that picky. In OPs case, the AO in charge of the file sounds like they should get a bonus.

Can you say more about this? What do you mean they track pixels? How can they tell about time spent on their website?

NP. Slate (by Technolutions) is the application review platform used by most college admission offices. It includes an entire page where the admissions officer, if they choose, can see when you clicked on the college website and what page over a long period of time. It is all tracked. Same for clicks of links in emails. There are interesting youtube training videos on Slate that show this.

More importantly, all the data ends up in the enrollment management consultant's mathematical model, along with numerous other pieces of data like parent education, employment, etc. Test scores or lack thereof, along with financial-related scores, also predict yield.

I don't know if this part is true, but it would be unsurprising if the click tracking fed data about number of times you run the NPCs, look at scholarship and financial aid pages, etc., in their estimate of whether you are seeking aid at a need-blind school. They have all that data. It's just a question of whether and how they use it.

High stats students are less likely to yield at a lower-ranked school. Enrollment management consultants should be able to figure out how many high stats applicants to yield one, in theory, but apparently they either aren't very good at it, or the desire to yield such students is overridden by the pressure to keep the acceptance rate down. Schools that are lower-ranked that commonly offer merit discounts have very, very, very detailed algorithms to help them offer just the right amount while maximizing yield within their budget. It is not a stretch to guess that high stats students would require larger merit discounts to yield.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just for kicks, please list the basic stats (or whatever else you want) of schools that your kid should have statistically gotten into but didn't.

I'll start:

School: Syracuse
GPA: 3.81 unweighted (DC private)
SAT: 1510

I’d reject this kid too. Why would they be applying to Syracuse??

They spent the time and money to apply. Assume they want to go there.

The money for many is trivial. The time, also. A few tweaks of an essay. For a school like Syracuse, when you get to the 18th college on your common app and you have a couple of free ones to go, why not just apply? Silly, but AO's know this game.

The strong but not T15 private colleges have to play this game, too. You don't think the AO's at BC, Wake, USC, Northeastern, BU, Tufts, Emory, etc. can't sniff out who is really interested in the school from someone like the OP? They track pixels on your email, time spent on their portal, engagement with webinairs, history of your high school, visits, SAT bands who have been accepted before, etc.. They have an entire software system set up to analyze demonstrated interest and likelihood of attending- and it is only getting more sophisticated.

When you get to the next tier below- GWU, Miami, Syracuse, TCU, SMU, Santa Clara they usually can't be (and aren't) that picky. In OPs case, the AO in charge of the file sounds like they should get a bonus.

Can you say more about this? What do you mean they track pixels? How can they tell about time spent on their website?

If you google SLATE, Salesforce Education Cloud, you'll see. The pixels are one of the oldest ways to track someone. There are more sophisticated ways, but pixels are the easiest. You would be amazed and appalled if you had a look behind the curtain at how this part of admissions works.

And a kid "that smart" can understand this and do everything possible to "show interest". Not difficult to do, especially nowadays that it can all be done virtually. Syracuse has a "why Syracuse" supplemental. Make that awesome as well. The OP kid likely didn't do all of that. But it's on the kid to show their "safety" schools that they are number one choices....it's okay to fake/lie in these cases, it's your job to convince the school you want to attend.

Just highlighting the claim that for a top student to get into college, they must be willing and able to lie. Is this a common view, that it is necessary to lie to get into college, even at a religious school like BC that purports to have ethical standards?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do kids apply to any safety school? If all else fails, it could be the best available option.

Top students shouldn’t use schools like Syracuse and BC as safeties. Even if they get in, there will be very few other strong students at the school, because the school actively turns such students away. They’d be better off at a state flagship where at least there will be top in-state kids.

Please tell us more about BC having very few strong students.