I've posted above a few times, but I'll also say this. Classroom management is hard as heck even with an easy class. Classroom management is barely brushed upon in education programs, which is a terrible disservice to everyone. It takes years to learn, and ime, I'd say you never stop learning it. It's just hard. It's constant. It's always changing. What works with one kid won't work with another kid. What works in September might not work anymore in February. You could have your routines down pat and then, bam, in walks a new kid mid year the entire class dynamic changes. You have to be prepared as hell, you have to know when to let something go, when to stand your ground, when to apologize, when a kid needs extra TLC. One of my colleagues and I were talking about a kid he had the roughest time with. He started telling the kid he loved him. That was the thing that turned that kid around. Another colleague has a kid who is just so obnoxious and responds best to giving out praise to the kids sitting next to him, and then he will stop the obnoxious behavior because he wants to be called out too. I had one kid who got everyone else going and laughing disruptively. The only thing that worked with him is that I had his parents bring him in early once a week (15 min) and we'd read together. That did it for him. He stopped being so disruptive. Some kids need a visual schedule. Some kids need a job. For some kids, nothing seems to work.

But no one in education programs is telling you how to handle it when you have to evacuate the class once a week due to safety issues. No one is talking about the kid who walks out of the bathroom with poop in their hands trying to wipe it on things because they are angry at you. No one is teaching teachers how to deal with the child who needs so much physical input they practically vault over their desk several times a day. Heck, no one is walking through the basics like how to establish routines. I personally think becoming a teacher should be a 6 year program. I think it should go like this:
Year one: 100 observation hours in at least 4 different schools and grade levels
Year two: 4 weeks each semester in a classroom, teaching one lesson each week, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year three: 6 weeks each semester in a classroom, teaching 2-3 lessons each week, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year four: 8 weeks each semester in a classroom, working up to teaching one full week all lessons, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year five: Full year teaching with a supervising teacher, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course, paid half of what teachers make
Year six: Another full year of teaching with a supervising teacher, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course, paid 75% what teachers make

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When has a student’s behavior ever been the teacher’s fault?

Not the behavior, but the lack of skills to manage the situation. In my experience behavior problems could be easily managed by good teachers.

I’ve been teaching for over 20 years and I have strong classroom management.

Student behavior has changed dramatically. A teacher’s toolkit (the ways we can address behavior) has been greatly diminished by administrative policies.

You can’t compare what we experienced decades ago to a modern classroom.

Can you be specific about what tools have been taken away? I don't doubt you, I just want to understand specifically what teachers are no longer allowed to do.

FWIW, I also feel like some of my tools as a parent have been deemed socially unacceptable. I often feel I am the only parent in our peer group who actually disciplines my kid, and I get side eye when I do things like make my kid go home if she cannot play well with others or denies her a treat due to poor behavior. At the same time that it feels discipline is no longer acceptable, I also get judgment for encouraging my child to exercise independence, such as having her play at the playground across the street on her own (she's 10, I can see her from my office window) or walk home from school alone.

I feel the default parenting for UMC parents is (1) give your kid whatever they want regardless of behavior but (2) never let them out if your sight until age 13. I think it leads to a lot of entitled, helpless behavior.

Tools that have been taken away:
student loses out on recess or even just a few minutes of recess
student loses out on indoor playtime or even just a few minutes of it
student loses chance to participate in a special activity
time out (in my private school, we cannot give time outs)
detention or having to stay after school
most suspensions
most expulsions (in public)
being able to make a kid sit outside the room for a few minutes in the hall
school wide-teachers are discouraged from making their kids be quiet in the hall
some parents no longer back teachers up

Everything is about understanding kids feelings. We use OT referrals in our school as a behavior management technique. And yeah, we do need to understand kids' emotions and OT is often helpful. Yes, we have grown in our understanding of helping kids to learn how to self regulate. We've just gone a little too far. I'm not saying punishment is the best or first defense. But to never punish? (not talking about hitting) To never make a kid lose out on a favorite activity? And when you have 1 student with very challenging needs, that's one thing. But when you have the year that you have 4 or 5? That's a whole different level of crazy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When has a student’s behavior ever been the teacher’s fault?

Not the behavior, but the lack of skills to manage the situation. In my experience behavior problems could be easily managed by good teachers.

I’ve been teaching for over 20 years and I have strong classroom management.

Student behavior has changed dramatically. A teacher’s toolkit (the ways we can address behavior) has been greatly diminished by administrative policies.

You can’t compare what we experienced decades ago to a modern classroom.

This. Decades ago, the worst issues teachers were dealing with most places were things like chewing gum in class or talking too much. Discipline from teachers worked because kids COULD be sent out of class. And if a parent called home, kids would get in massive trouble, usually meaning a whooping. Now, teachers cannot send kids out of class to the office unless it is an incredibly terrible reason (think punching another student leading to bleeding, or issuing a death threat). And please don't get started on private school teachers and how they should be more strict. I went from public to private and private school teachers hands are TIED. We wouldn't want to piss off the entitled tuition paying parents now would we?
In BOTH public and private I've experienced very young children threatening to shoot other people (repeatedly, with credible threats). I've had kids who cannot control their impulses and are always in other kids faces, repeatedly pushing, kicking, spitting and biting. I've had kids turn over furniture, throw chairs, destroy materials, etc. The classroom has changed. Detention is not a thing anymore (please, please, please let's bring back detention!!!). Suspension is incredibly rare, as is expulsion.
And even if schools were to expel a kid, there's not enough alternative schools to take them.

And yes, some teachers are better managers than others. Yes, this is an area that every teacher I know is always working on. And yes, it is up to us as adults to help kids learn how to behave (by adults I mean parents, teachers, families, communities). But kids are so badly behaved today it is stunning.

The ways in which children and teens (and adults) behave is directly correlated to their social -emotional competency. When a student exhibits unwanted or inappropriate behavior they are demonstrating a lack in a skill or skill set related to one or more of the five social -emotional competencies. It takes a village to develop these competencies - parents, teachers, and schools. If you want less behavior problems in schools start with proactively coaching these competencies as a matter of intention as well as embedded throughout the learning experiences of the school day. And, any discipline should include further coaching. Punishment doesn't teach a skill.

I definitely see both sides. DS was in a wild out of control class one year. The teacher definitely tried but nothing really worked. Teacher yelled a lot, called parents a lot and tried to get the principal to do something.

Same kids next year in a 55 year old teachers classroom were angels. That teacher knew exactly what to do to get them in line. I really don’t know what she did but she was strict, loving and had interesting lessons.

Overall though I think parents aren’t disciplining at home (and I don’t mean spanking). One time DS told me “oh it wasn’t so bad. They only called the misbehaving students parents and that was it.” His dad and I laughed and said if we got a phone call, that would only be the beginning of the punishment. He’d be in tons of trouble at home.

Anonymous wrote:

I love these small rules that help young students learn to listen and follow directions that are age appropriate. If they never learn to do this in ES, you miss the boat.

This is exactly right. The parents who argue that these rules do not or should not apply to their child are doing them a disservice and setting them up for a life of struggle. Kids need boundaries. If you don't set them, they'll keep escalating poor behaviors, much to their own detriment.

DC attended Catholic schools. IMO most teachers were good with classroom management, especially at the younger ages.
But invariably you would have parents complain that DC was talked to re:
- not wearing a belt or some other uniform infraction,
-teachers making kids line up single file and walk silently to/from recess,
- points off for not writing name or following specific title instructions…..

I love these small rules that help young students learn to listen and follow directions that are age appropriate. If they never learn to do this in ES, you miss the boat.

Anonymous wrote:Interesting that is never the teachers fault. So many good teachers around.

I don't think anyone is saying that. The teacher has to have good classroom management and communicate promptly with parents when there are issues, and escalate to admin if things don't improve. Admin has to back up the teacher's efforts and be willing to step in if escalation is needed. And parents need to not immediately blame other kids or the teacher when they hear that their kid is misbehaving or playing a role in some misbehavior, and there needs to be conversations and consequences at home for it in addition to at school. It has to be a team effort- it's the only way it works.

The best parents can't totally negate the influence of a classroom that's not well-managed by the teacher, or classmates who are poorly parented.
The best teachers can't fix behavior when either admin won't back them up, the kid learns that their parents think it's everyone else's fault and they are perfect, or both. Everyone plays a role.

Interesting that is never the teachers fault. So many good teachers around.

Anonymous wrote:When I was in school, disruptive kids were not much of an issue because the school and the teachers were extremely good at managing them. If there was a disruption, the teacher could remove the child quickly from the classroom and the lesson would continue.

My experience with private schools nowadays, through my child, has been very different. I see several disruptive kids who are not being effectively managed by the teacher, and those kids are eventually expelled.

So my question is: which approach is better overall? To me, there seems to be a trend toward shifting responsibility for classroom management from the teacher to the students. What do you think?

Neither. When the kids are younger, it’s mostly the parents and some the admin. When the kids are older, then it’s partly them since they have learned from their parents how very special they are.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When has a student’s behavior ever been the teacher’s fault?

Not the behavior, but the lack of skills to manage the situation. In my experience behavior problems could be easily managed by good teachers.

I’ve been teaching for over 20 years and I have strong classroom management.

Student behavior has changed dramatically. A teacher’s toolkit (the ways we can address behavior) has been greatly diminished by administrative policies.

You can’t compare what we experienced decades ago to a modern classroom.

Can you be specific about what tools have been taken away? I don't doubt you, I just want to understand specifically what teachers are no longer allowed to do.

FWIW, I also feel like some of my tools as a parent have been deemed socially unacceptable. I often feel I am the only parent in our peer group who actually disciplines my kid, and I get side eye when I do things like make my kid go home if she cannot play well with others or denies her a treat due to poor behavior. At the same time that it feels discipline is no longer acceptable, I also get judgment for encouraging my child to exercise independence, such as having her play at the playground across the street on her own (she's 10, I can see her from my office window) or walk home from school alone.

I feel the default parenting for UMC parents is (1) give your kid whatever they want regardless of behavior but (2) never let them out if your sight until age 13. I think it leads to a lot of entitled, helpless behavior.

What you're describing is what we're seeing as teachers (25+ year teacher here). It's not all parents, it might not even be a majority of parents, but there are a number of parents who object any time their child is held accountable, even in the smallest ways. They want their child to encounter zero obstacles. A child who is never told "no" at home will act out in school when they encounter boundaries and expectations and this results in the poor behavior OP is describing. A teacher's influence is minimal, and many parents go right to the HOS, bypassing the teacher entirely, when they object to a consequence or boundary their child has been given.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When has a student’s behavior ever been the teacher’s fault?

Not the behavior, but the lack of skills to manage the situation. In my experience behavior problems could be easily managed by good teachers.

I’ve been teaching for over 20 years and I have strong classroom management.

Student behavior has changed dramatically. A teacher’s toolkit (the ways we can address behavior) has been greatly diminished by administrative policies.

You can’t compare what we experienced decades ago to a modern classroom.

Can you be specific about what tools have been taken away? I don't doubt you, I just want to understand specifically what teachers are no longer allowed to do.

FWIW, I also feel like some of my tools as a parent have been deemed socially unacceptable. I often feel I am the only parent in our peer group who actually disciplines my kid, and I get side eye when I do things like make my kid go home if she cannot play well with others or denies her a treat due to poor behavior. At the same time that it feels discipline is no longer acceptable, I also get judgment for encouraging my child to exercise independence, such as having her play at the playground across the street on her own (she's 10, I can see her from my office window) or walk home from school alone.

I feel the default parenting for UMC parents is (1) give your kid whatever they want regardless of behavior but (2) never let them out if your sight until age 13. I think it leads to a lot of entitled, helpless behavior.

As others have noted, it's the fault of the administration, specifically the HOS. Of course each child is responsible for their own behavior, but the degree of institutional tolerance for poor behavior is a top-down decision. A teacher has very little power in this situation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Private schools expect that children be taught behavior at home, and that children be disciplined at home. Totally different environment from publics which need to accept and deal with everyone.

A disruptive child is usually counseled out. Teachers are in private schools so they can teach and not have to deal with constant behavior problems. Parents are paying to get their kids away from problemed peers.

Sometimes the disruptive kids are the youngest from “good” families who donate heavily in which case they just stick the teachers with the problem.

+1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When has a student’s behavior ever been the teacher’s fault?

Not the behavior, but the lack of skills to manage the situation. In my experience behavior problems could be easily managed by good teachers.

Wow, you have VERY limited experience which the range of behaviors across the population of children.

Maybe, but I have seen VERY and MANY incompetent teachers that cannot manage their classrooms.

Sounds like you made a lot of poor choices in picking schools, then.

Not really. Just one. Going to a school with condescending people like you.

So you’ve had “VERY and MANY incompetent teachers” at just one school, and stayed there? Are you the person with the St Mary’s hate-boner who can’t stand the school but never leaves?