I was the quintessential "good as gold" kid, a joy to teach, mature for my age and all that. My mother was so proud that we were (in her own words) "terrified" of my father, who would berate us mercilessly, call us names, mock us and scream at her, particularly when he was drunk,which was often.

From the outside, what people saw were EXTREMELY well-behaved kids, perfectly dressed, straight A's. My parents were literally invited by our Catholic church to help teach the marriage preparation class because they supposedly had such a great marriage.

You literally never know what kind of dysfunction is taking place in someone else's home, and lots of kids can overperform academically as a type of compensation ("If I get straight A's, maybe I won't get attacked and mocked.") The idea that everyone who turns out well has "great parents" is patently false. And I suspect the opposite is probably equally true.

I had a lot to work through when I had kids -- since what I had learned was that all that matters is the final product. It doesn't matter how you get those perfect kids, as long as you get them, right? Part of me literally believed it was probably okay to make up mean nicknames for our kids as long as it got them to perform. If you were lucky enough to grow up in a functional home with mature parents, you have a huge step up in life, but don't assume everyone has that.

Anonymous wrote:I have three great kids. I used to think I had fantastic parenting. I’m now wondering if I just got lucky with three easy kids.

My kids hang out with other good kids and I mostly congregate with nice parents.

The siblings of my kids’ friends aren’t always so well behaved and the kids of my actual adult friends are just plain out bad. I wonder if my friends just got unlucky or they are horrible parents.

Do you think it is nature?

My one good friend who is one of the smartest and nicest people I know has three terribly behaved children. My other good friend watches her kids hit her and tantrum in public.

Almost humans are born feral and it the responsibility of the parent/parents to civilized their offspring.

Have you ever watched a mother dog or cat discipline their puppies and kittens? They do and they only have 6 ton,8 weeks to do so. These children of your friends were unlucky to have crap parents.

My cousins were raised well, good manners, parents very involved, and seemed very promising by 18. Both got into good colleges (one extremely prestigious). But one got into drugs in their 20s and one is a failure to launch and lives at home.

I’m resigned to the fact that you never know.

I would never have imagined in my life that my kids would be special needs, and they inherited the family curses from DH. Throughout the process, we found out that DH & his direct family all have undiagnosed autism and adhd, but they all masked so well to the point that I would never think of it. DH does not understand why I am mad at him most of the time, and I try to be a superman to be working full time, taking care of kids and helping my kids to get friendship, work on their challenges and helping them to act and talk like other kids.

Other families may put their efforts on discipline, good habits, excellance, and manner. I have to prioritize my kid needs on making them to eat ( feeding therapies for early years) to gain weight even though other families may not understand why I feed them junk food. They all have sensory eating disorder, and they gag and vomit if I force them to eat sometimes. Other families may not understand why I do not host playdates, why I have to keep them busy by signing up all these activities to gain certain skills etc.. My kids are high functioning, but they struggle with basic social cues. If my kids are normal , I would love to shift my energy and effort to raise a smart & well behaved kids. I spent a few thousands over 5 years on one kid, and he still cannot swim well. DH can swim and capable to do many things, he can find many reasons to tell me that why he cannot even teach him for once. He is not a good dad or a husband, and I learn that I either have to suck it up to do it or no one would do anything for my kids. They are nice kids, but they just need more love and more effort to achieve some normal goals.

It's the luck of the draw. You get what you get and then you try your best.

Since becoming a parent, the one thing that I have completely changed my mind on, and about which I have no doubts, is that there is very little correlation between parenting quality and child behavior.

You have the privilege of having three easy children.

There is also the fact that kids’ temperaments are sometimes more naturally suited to some developmental stages than others. My fiercely independent kid had a really hard time when she was little, because she had so little control. But as she became more independent, she got so much easier, and so much more fun.

Another point worth mentioning: early on, neurodivergence often manifests as “difficulty” — but once you know what the kid needs, you can begin meeting those needs in a way that shifts the dynamic.

Life is long, OP, and it’s not linear or predictable, and it sounds like you’re still in circles with pretty young kids. I would just add “for now” to any observations you’re making about your own or others’ children.

Anonymous wrote:I think it's nature and nurture. I also think sometimes parents are well suited to their kids natural personalities and other times not, and when there is conflict, it can all go wrong.

But I also think that people who are more flexible and adaptable tend to make better parents in general, because this enables them to be the parent their kids need. Then you don't have to just get lucky with kids suited to your personality, because you have the skills to make it work with any kids.

I completely agree with this. I am rather rigid by nature, and belatedly realized that my kids are the worse for it. They're good people - they're all young adults now and they're law-abiding and kind -- but the oldest is struggling with his mental health (recent college grad, no FT job, worried about the future of the US), middle is inattentive ADHD and underemployed. I think if I had modeled more flexibility and adaptability for them, they would be struggling less.

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

It seems odd to me that people didn't realize this growing up. When I was a kid/teen, I knew some great parents with difficult kids and not great parents with wonderful kids. Also quite a few families with both. It was clear that good parenting helps but it's still a crapshoot.

Anonymous wrote:A lot of kids have bad luck in the parenting department, OP. Their parents are a big disappointment.

I was once with one of these kids who was acting up and slapped mom and said profanities. My friend’s daughter was with us and she said my mom would kill me if I spoke to her that way. I didn’t say it but I also thought this girl deserved a good beating, a beating so bad that she would never act that way again. Other parents and I just watched in disbelief. The girl was 11 or so.

A lot of kids have bad luck in the parenting department, OP. Their parents are a big disappointment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

Thank you! I think it’s always pretty easy to judge someone else. I judge my past actions all of the time! But who is to say what the best possible outcome is?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

I especially think this is true if there are special needs. We know a single mom with a daughter who seems like she is on the spectrum but not diagnosed. Mom is always yelling at her saying how embarrassing the child is. With proper therapy, the girl could be high functioning.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.