Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry. Your husband’s behavior is inexcusable and a complete turn off.

Since divorce isn’t an option. Best of luck to you and your kids

Boy, what a silly and unhelpful answer. These divorce-your-dh nutjobs never appreciate that marriage, family, and parenting is not always a walk in the park; husbands and wives are also learning, growing, through the years, and bring their experiences to a relationship. Alas, even ans andults, we are not always perfect.

Throwing “divorce” on the table every time there is a relationship challenge, is not helpful for creating and sustaining healthy relationships. Presumaly, if you married someone, it was to live a life together, through the ups and downs of love…

PP, if everything in your life is so disposable, you are simply a fair-weather friend. Be gone with you…

“Worst of all he's physically intimidated her by throwing her things when he's angry, or handling her roughly out of impatience/frustration (like picking her up and moving her roughly if she refuses to move”

Ma’am OPs husbands actions w his daughter are FAR from a relationship issue.

However, you do you.

Well because these actions are not deemed serious enough physical abuse in the eyes of family court and he would get shared custody. And the kid would then be alone with him and she would not be around to keep it in check. I am in that situation and it’s a living purgatory.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks for the helpful responses. As to the divorce depabte, ther eality is that the courts award 50% custody by default unless there is serious documented physical abuse, which our situation doesn't qualify as. He has never thrown anything at our child like a PP suggested. He has for example thrown her backpack angrily down the stairs when she won't get ready for school. But that's why I photographed the mark, to start compiling evidence in case we do get to divorce territory someday. But just one photo of a red mark won't alter the 50% default. That's why I'm not divorcing; I refuse to give up my kids. It's easy to say "Oh I'd never let my husband do that, he'd be gone in a heartbeat" until you actually think it through and look up divorce laws. I do think I can get him to make the effort to change, because I've pulled away from him physically and emotionally, and he'll want to change that, even if he won't change for his kids.

And yes, his father was angry irritable and physical as well, so that's a factor. Turns out he had undiagnosed depression for my DH's whole childhood, so I that's why I think that's a possibility for DH. NOw his dad is on meds and way more calm.

Thanks for the recommendation for the PEP class, I'll definitely look into that.

Also, I'm not a permissive parent; we have several tools that I use to enforce loving boundaries, including 1-2-3- timeout, saying "try again", natural consequences, etc. My husband always forgets to use them no matter how many times I remind him. I'm not perfect either; I have yelled at my kids on occasion, though I'm generally pretty even-keeled. But even when I yell, I apologize profusely and repair the relationship. That's one of DH's big problems, is he never repairs adequately, so the hurts keep mounting.

I'm not a perfect parent, but it wasn't until the kids were a bit older that I realized that I need to show my kids that I also make mistakes. I started to apologize to my children when they were teens for my parenting fails. My 20 yr old recently told me that when I apologize, they are more apt to not stay angry with me and see me as just being a human who makes mistakes, like they do. It's done a lot for our relationship.

DH doesn't do that. He just expects the kids to get over it. The irony is that DH claims I always have to be right when we argue.

Leave him before he ruins your whole life and that of your children. He will not ask or want 50/50 and even if he does he will not abide by it. You will live in peace.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks for the helpful responses. As to the divorce depabte, ther eality is that the courts award 50% custody by default unless there is serious documented physical abuse, which our situation doesn't qualify as. He has never thrown anything at our child like a PP suggested. He has for example thrown her backpack angrily down the stairs when she won't get ready for school. But that's why I photographed the mark, to start compiling evidence in case we do get to divorce territory someday. But just one photo of a red mark won't alter the 50% default. That's why I'm not divorcing; I refuse to give up my kids. It's easy to say "Oh I'd never let my husband do that, he'd be gone in a heartbeat" until you actually think it through and look up divorce laws. I do think I can get him to make the effort to change, because I've pulled away from him physically and emotionally, and he'll want to change that, even if he won't change for his kids.

And yes, his father was angry irritable and physical as well, so that's a factor. Turns out he had undiagnosed depression for my DH's whole childhood, so I that's why I think that's a possibility for DH. NOw his dad is on meds and way more calm.

Thanks for the recommendation for the PEP class, I'll definitely look into that.

Also, I'm not a permissive parent; we have several tools that I use to enforce loving boundaries, including 1-2-3- timeout, saying "try again", natural consequences, etc. My husband always forgets to use them no matter how many times I remind him. I'm not perfect either; I have yelled at my kids on occasion, though I'm generally pretty even-keeled. But even when I yell, I apologize profusely and repair the relationship. That's one of DH's big problems, is he never repairs adequately, so the hurts keep mounting.

OP I think it would be really helpful for you to get individual therapy with a family systems therapist to sort out what you can do and cannot do. You have to distinguish between the things you can’t accept (like the grabbing/throwing/being scary) and your DH not parenting the way you think is best. There will be a lot you let go, but also some things you have to stand absolutely firm on.

Here is my story. My exDH was similarly short tempered and put his hands on our kid and was scary. His own father had been physically abusive as well and his mother not abusive but a spanker (like no grandma I will not “pop” the toddler on the hand for being naughty.) ExDH refused any sort of parent training (he attended but did not pay attention/argued with the therapist) so I just attended myself and learned how to properly discipline (I was inconsistent and too permissive and our kid did have difficult behaviors).

I was very concerned about exDH’s interactions with our child when he was younger (maybe starting around 4). Any time that I saw him do anything physical (for example physically stop DC from getting up when they were doing homework together) I was right there in exDH’s face, stopping the interaction or watching like a hawk. exDH knew very very clearly (because I made it clear) that he could not get away with anything physical on my watch.

While this was happening there were many other parenting issues I disagreed with. DH never used any of the parenting tools I learned, he wouldn’t do things like “validate emotions,” could be short with DC, etc etc. Later on our DC had some bigger emotional issues and DH’s response was basically a variety of “be a man and buck up!” And DH can be sort of harsh about DC’s shortcomings. So yeah not exactly a follower of Dr Becky.

But … I had to force myself eventually to let go of trying to micromanage anything about their relationship except the things that were truly non-negotiable: no physical violence, feed the kid, get kid to bed at a reasonable hour.

Over time DC calmed down and DH stopped getting angry. part of this was DH avoiding anything difficult with DC and DC learning DH’s limits. Anything difficult (like chores etc) was left to me. Also over time it became apparent to me that DH had his own way and gifts he brought to DC as a parent (a type of unconditional love that DC knows is there) and lots of other stuff that would be too long to list here. I did have to give up my notion that I knew the best way to parent or that “good parenting” by definition means always overthinking things or applying a method.

At the end of the day exDH and DC have a sort of old-school father-son relationship - warm but not emotionally deep, with a lot of distance between them in terms of actual demands on each other. Like bros lol.

Oh and we got divorced because exDH was a d*ck to me and I got sick of him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks for the helpful responses. As to the divorce depabte, ther eality is that the courts award 50% custody by default unless there is serious documented physical abuse, which our situation doesn't qualify as. He has never thrown anything at our child like a PP suggested. He has for example thrown her backpack angrily down the stairs when she won't get ready for school. But that's why I photographed the mark, to start compiling evidence in case we do get to divorce territory someday. But just one photo of a red mark won't alter the 50% default. That's why I'm not divorcing; I refuse to give up my kids. It's easy to say "Oh I'd never let my husband do that, he'd be gone in a heartbeat" until you actually think it through and look up divorce laws. I do think I can get him to make the effort to change, because I've pulled away from him physically and emotionally, and he'll want to change that, even if he won't change for his kids.

And yes, his father was angry irritable and physical as well, so that's a factor. Turns out he had undiagnosed depression for my DH's whole childhood, so I that's why I think that's a possibility for DH. NOw his dad is on meds and way more calm.

Thanks for the recommendation for the PEP class, I'll definitely look into that.

Also, I'm not a permissive parent; we have several tools that I use to enforce loving boundaries, including 1-2-3- timeout, saying "try again", natural consequences, etc. My husband always forgets to use them no matter how many times I remind him. I'm not perfect either; I have yelled at my kids on occasion, though I'm generally pretty even-keeled. But even when I yell, I apologize profusely and repair the relationship. That's one of DH's big problems, is he never repairs adequately, so the hurts keep mounting.

Ugh

I doubt she’s doing that on purpose. Pulling away is natural in this kind of situation.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks for the helpful responses. As to the divorce depabte, ther eality is that the courts award 50% custody by default unless there is serious documented physical abuse, which our situation doesn't qualify as. He has never thrown anything at our child like a PP suggested. He has for example thrown her backpack angrily down the stairs when she won't get ready for school. But that's why I photographed the mark, to start compiling evidence in case we do get to divorce territory someday. But just one photo of a red mark won't alter the 50% default. That's why I'm not divorcing; I refuse to give up my kids. It's easy to say "Oh I'd never let my husband do that, he'd be gone in a heartbeat" until you actually think it through and look up divorce laws. I do think I can get him to make the effort to change, because I've pulled away from him physically and emotionally, and he'll want to change that, even if he won't change for his kids.

And yes, his father was angry irritable and physical as well, so that's a factor. Turns out he had undiagnosed depression for my DH's whole childhood, so I that's why I think that's a possibility for DH. NOw his dad is on meds and way more calm.

Thanks for the recommendation for the PEP class, I'll definitely look into that.

Also, I'm not a permissive parent; we have several tools that I use to enforce loving boundaries, including 1-2-3- timeout, saying "try again", natural consequences, etc. My husband always forgets to use them no matter how many times I remind him. I'm not perfect either; I have yelled at my kids on occasion, though I'm generally pretty even-keeled. But even when I yell, I apologize profusely and repair the relationship. That's one of DH's big problems, is he never repairs adequately, so the hurts keep mounting.

Ugh

Anonymous wrote:And yes, his father was angry irritable and physical as well, so that's a factor. Turns out he had undiagnosed depression for my DH's whole childhood, so I that's why I think that's a possibility for DH. NOw his dad is on meds and way more calm.

OP, I would treat this as THE factor not A factor. Your husband doesn't know how to parent when the kid shows any agency. The reason this never showed up before is that it's deeply rooted in your husband's own childhood - he is parenting based on what he knows and what he experienced. He needs parenting classes, therapy to process how his childhood is affecting his parenting, and (maybe) meds for any mental health stuff that may be at play.

This is not an excuse - he needs to take accountability and fix what's wrong. But it's way, way more common than you might expect.

OP here. Thanks for the helpful responses. As to the divorce depabte, ther eality is that the courts award 50% custody by default unless there is serious documented physical abuse, which our situation doesn't qualify as. He has never thrown anything at our child like a PP suggested. He has for example thrown her backpack angrily down the stairs when she won't get ready for school. But that's why I photographed the mark, to start compiling evidence in case we do get to divorce territory someday. But just one photo of a red mark won't alter the 50% default. That's why I'm not divorcing; I refuse to give up my kids. It's easy to say "Oh I'd never let my husband do that, he'd be gone in a heartbeat" until you actually think it through and look up divorce laws. I do think I can get him to make the effort to change, because I've pulled away from him physically and emotionally, and he'll want to change that, even if he won't change for his kids.

And yes, his father was angry irritable and physical as well, so that's a factor. Turns out he had undiagnosed depression for my DH's whole childhood, so I that's why I think that's a possibility for DH. NOw his dad is on meds and way more calm.

Thanks for the recommendation for the PEP class, I'll definitely look into that.

Also, I'm not a permissive parent; we have several tools that I use to enforce loving boundaries, including 1-2-3- timeout, saying "try again", natural consequences, etc. My husband always forgets to use them no matter how many times I remind him. I'm not perfect either; I have yelled at my kids on occasion, though I'm generally pretty even-keeled. But even when I yell, I apologize profusely and repair the relationship. That's one of DH's big problems, is he never repairs adequately, so the hurts keep mounting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What was the purpose in taking a photo? Who were you going to show it to?

Collecting evidence in these situations is smart. If it doesn’t continue, it’s fine. If it does continue or it escalates, you’ll be glad you documented.

No, it was a terrible idea.

lol why so defensive?

Of course OP could have her own issues. But sometimes things are more wrong than others - and grabbing your small child so hard it leaves a mark is one of those things. her DH needs to face that.

I'm not defensive. I'm holding up the mirror. Here's OP, putting on the face that she's this poor, loving, patient mother with an angry husband. But her tale is filled with actions and verbiage that suggests she's contributing big-time to the dysfunction. It's not "defensive" to point it out.

Not to mention, the photographs aren't actual evidence of anything.

I think you are the only one who mistakenly believes someone is on trial here. OP did nothing to make her DH grab her child so hard it left a mark and act in anger to the kids. That is 100% on him. Whatever OP’s flaws are are irrelevant here. But clearly you are against the DH having to face that what his is doing is wrong. Or you actually think it is OK to behave that way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What was the purpose in taking a photo? Who were you going to show it to?

Collecting evidence in these situations is smart. If it doesn’t continue, it’s fine. If it does continue or it escalates, you’ll be glad you documented.

No, it was a terrible idea.

lol why so defensive?

Of course OP could have her own issues. But sometimes things are more wrong than others - and grabbing your small child so hard it leaves a mark is one of those things. her DH needs to face that.

I'm not defensive. I'm holding up the mirror. Here's OP, putting on the face that she's this poor, loving, patient mother with an angry husband. But her tale is filled with actions and verbiage that suggests she's contributing big-time to the dysfunction. It's not "defensive" to point it out.

Not to mention, the photographs aren't actual evidence of anything.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What was the purpose in taking a photo? Who were you going to show it to?

Collecting evidence in these situations is smart. If it doesn’t continue, it’s fine. If it does continue or it escalates, you’ll be glad you documented.

No, it was a terrible idea.

lol why so defensive?

Of course OP could have her own issues. But sometimes things are more wrong than others - and grabbing your small child so hard it leaves a mark is one of those things. her DH needs to face that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH and I have been married for 13 years, with two kids, DS3 and DD6. He has always been a thoughtful and caring husband and until a few years ago we had a fairytale marriage with no stress and very few arguments. Until we had kids. When our first hit the terrible two's my amazing kind husband turned into someone I didn't recognize sometimes. He will get easily irritated and annoyed by our daughter over common little kid discipline issues. (It's always our daughter... our son is a really easygoing kid so far.) He always needs to have the final say and can be sarcastic and demeaning. Worst of all he's physically intimidated her by throwing her things when he's angry, or handling her roughly out of impatience/frustration (like picking her up and moving her roughly if she refuses to move.) He's not like this all the time of course, but when he's angry and annoyed he can't handle it. I've tried so hard to help him come up with strategies and tools to help him parent better, but he never remembers to use them.

Anyways, recently he grabbed my daughter to move her out of the way when he was on the phone and she wouldn't quiet down. It left a red mark on her arm for an hour, which I photographed. I'm not even sure he would have apologized to her afterwards if I hadn't made him. That was a turning point for me and I've realized I've lost the trust and respect and love I've had for him. When he tries to get physically close to me, all I feel is disgust. Who can hurt their own child?

Obviously I am going to require him to get counseling, anger management and also get evaluated for depression and hopefully get on some meds. I am going to keep my daughter safe so that this will never happen again. I am not entertaining the idea of divorce since there's no way I'd let him have 50% custody and not be there to protect my kids. I'm wondering if anyone else has been here and had counseling / meds / intervention work and help your DH become a better parent? Is there any coming back from this? As for the posters who always chime in with "you knew this about him and married him" -- no I did not, there was never any inkling of this kind of behavior before kids. He was even an amazing, playful uncle. I was totally blindsided.

Which you photographed? Why the hell did you do that? Do you think you are gathering “evidence?” To what end? Divorce and custody fight? Jail? WTAF. I get that everyone here wants to cast themselves in a good light but holy shit was that an escalation and provocation that suggests maybe you aren’t the angel you claim to be.

And another thing, you aren’t going to “require” him to do anything. There’s another clue that you aren’t the angel. Rather it sounds like you are equally an angry person and there’s dysfunction in this marriage that is playing out for the kids to see.

You are correct that it sounds like you both could benefit from parenting classes. I am sure you believe you don’t, which would be yet another clue you do.

And marriage counseling.

But holy shit if you are documenting things like you think you are Nancy Drew, you better know for what purpose.

I mean, if you don’t want the marks you leave on your kid to be documented, keep your hands off the kid.

OP’s husband needs to realize the severity of of his behavior and that OP is not going to let it slide. A photograph is totally appropriate

Anonymous wrote:My husband was like this a bit although not as bad as you described since he was never physically rough with our kids. I did a lot of stepping in and handling as much of the discipline as possible when things were the worst (for us during the pandemic, we were all really struggling). I have told him many times that if he is behaving in a way that is not acceptable to me I will step in and he can go cool off and he is welcome to do the same for me (which has happened, maybe twice? I am incredibly triggered by behaviors by my oldest towards my younger child, but I don’t let myself off the hook when I do get to the point of yelling, I always apologize and try to do better). To his credit he basically accepted that and eventually realized the kids generally listened to me more than him and changed a lot over time. We did parent training together and that was very helpful. But I hear you about how it changes your feelings towards him. I could not bring myself to be intimate with him for a while when he was yelling at the kids. How can you be attracted to someone who is screaming at a child? I can’t.

I think for men who have generally had an easy time of things and have a somewhat high powered job it’s the first time they’ve really encountered this dynamic of a little person who should listen to them but doesn’t. And they react very poorly sometimes. It was a shock to me too but he really has come a long way, though when he’s stressed about other things it creeps back and I have step back in a bit more.

The other possibility is your husband had a very bad childhood in ways he’s too embarrassed or doesn’t understand enough to explain. I did not realize until long after our first child was born how messed up my ILs parenting was in some ways. Lots of silent treatment and big tantrums by his mom so his dad was always trying to get the kids to keep happy. She never did that stuff in front of me until she got more comfortable and I actually think she has been trying to do better since the grandkids were born. None of it is an excuse but sometimes it helps me to reflect that he is fighting against some pretty bad default settings of parenting he saw growing up.

+1 on verbalizing to him that you will step in every time and intervene and also call 911 if possible. You have to make it very, very clear to him that it is not acceptable. You don’t need couples therapy for that, you need individual therapy. Every single time he is rough or yells you intervene calmly.

The tricky thing is that you cannot mistake your own (possibly permissive) parenting style as the baseline. It’s ok for him to get irritated and it is ok for kids to be disciplined. But it can’t be aggressive.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What was the purpose in taking a photo? Who were you going to show it to?

Collecting evidence in these situations is smart. If it doesn’t continue, it’s fine. If it does continue or it escalates, you’ll be glad you documented.

No, it was a terrible idea.

Anonymous wrote:DH and I have been married for 13 years, with two kids, DS3 and DD6. He has always been a thoughtful and caring husband and until a few years ago we had a fairytale marriage with no stress and very few arguments. Until we had kids. When our first hit the terrible two's my amazing kind husband turned into someone I didn't recognize sometimes. He will get easily irritated and annoyed by our daughter over common little kid discipline issues. (It's always our daughter... our son is a really easygoing kid so far.) He always needs to have the final say and can be sarcastic and demeaning. Worst of all he's physically intimidated her by throwing her things when he's angry, or handling her roughly out of impatience/frustration (like picking her up and moving her roughly if she refuses to move.) He's not like this all the time of course, but when he's angry and annoyed he can't handle it. I've tried so hard to help him come up with strategies and tools to help him parent better, but he never remembers to use them.

Anyways, recently he grabbed my daughter to move her out of the way when he was on the phone and she wouldn't quiet down. It left a red mark on her arm for an hour, which I photographed. I'm not even sure he would have apologized to her afterwards if I hadn't made him. That was a turning point for me and I've realized I've lost the trust and respect and love I've had for him. When he tries to get physically close to me, all I feel is disgust. Who can hurt their own child?

Obviously I am going to require him to get counseling, anger management and also get evaluated for depression and hopefully get on some meds. I am going to keep my daughter safe so that this will never happen again. I am not entertaining the idea of divorce since there's no way I'd let him have 50% custody and not be there to protect my kids. I'm wondering if anyone else has been here and had counseling / meds / intervention work and help your DH become a better parent? Is there any coming back from this? As for the posters who always chime in with "you knew this about him and married him" -- no I did not, there was never any inkling of this kind of behavior before kids. He was even an amazing, playful uncle. I was totally blindsided.

Which you photographed? Why the hell did you do that? Do you think you are gathering “evidence?” To what end? Divorce and custody fight? Jail? WTAF. I get that everyone here wants to cast themselves in a good light but holy shit was that an escalation and provocation that suggests maybe you aren’t the angel you claim to be.

And another thing, you aren’t going to “require” him to do anything. There’s another clue that you aren’t the angel. Rather it sounds like you are equally an angry person and there’s dysfunction in this marriage that is playing out for the kids to see.

You are correct that it sounds like you both could benefit from parenting classes. I am sure you believe you don’t, which would be yet another clue you do.

And marriage counseling.

But holy shit if you are documenting things like you think you are Nancy Drew, you better know for what purpose.