Anonymous wrote:You can be cynical and think it’s about money, but it’s actually a message explicitly welcoming a group that other religious sects repudiate.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First off, I am an atheist. Admittedly, I have a cynical view of religion. Also, my vantage point is Bethesda.

I can't help but notice that pretty much every church I see has a flag, placard, or message out front targeting a single demographic: the LGBT community. Not asians, not hispanics, not men, not women, not young, not old - LGBT.

Churches exist for one reason: to propagate themselves. That requires money and customers. So, it must be that singularly advertising to LGBT is a smart business move. Its just a surprising one, given the % of population and, I would think, I general dis-inclination toward religion.

So what is the deal? Smart business move? Meaningless signaling? Something else?

Those aren't real churches

Folks, here is the poster who thinks that Protestant denominations that have been mainstays of religious life in the US since the nation’s founding aren’t “real churches.”

Draw your own conclusions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

The bolded is not in line with my experience at all, as Presbyterian USA.
But more relevantly, there are dozens of different Protestant denominations with different beliefs, e.g., denominations that as a matter of doctrine are not overly concerned with the cross. These differences have deep historical and theological roots. You're entitled to think their beliefs are incorrect, but to suggest they arise from a desire to attract membership in the 21st century is pretty ignorant.

I was the original person who replied. My best friend growing up belonged to a PCUSA church and I frequently tagged along with his family to various church things. My first wife also went to a PCUSA church and I occasionally went with her. Maybe it was just purely me. But I remember little very discussion of Jesus and no discussion of the cross, or substitutionary atonement. In my early 40s, I came across Tim Keller for the first time. Despite seeming like I knew a lot about Christianity, I felt like I was hearing about a new religion for the first time after finding Keller’s sermons and then reading his books. What Christianity actually meant, why it was profoundly deeper than “just do good stuff and maybe get to heaven,” Jesus becoming beautiful to me, developing a personal relationship with Jesus, seeing the Gospel actually change the worst habits in my life up until that point — it was nothing like the religion I grew up with or was around as a young adult. Again, maybe it was just me, but it’s my experience in talking to other mainline Protestants, that they do not, by and large, have a faith that truly changes them.

If you grow up with something then of course it doesn't feel like it changes you: it's your normal. That's why adult converts (to anything) are so much more zealous and often more vocal as compared to people who believe and do the exact same things but have from childhood.

Like most Protestant denominations, PCUSA congregations are each slightly different. The ministers have their choice of topics to preach. It sounds like the ones you encountered were uninspiring to you or perhaps really didn't base their sermons in the Bible (not my experience but I'm sure it happens).
But it's a big leap to imply, as you repeatedly have, that because it didn't move you, these people don't have a deeply held faith. And it's unfortunate you can't imagine that congregations would be LGBT-welcoming as a sincere expression of religious values and Biblical teachings, even if you differ with them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

The bolded is not in line with my experience at all, as Presbyterian USA.
But more relevantly, there are dozens of different Protestant denominations with different beliefs, e.g., denominations that as a matter of doctrine are not overly concerned with the cross. These differences have deep historical and theological roots. You're entitled to think their beliefs are incorrect, but to suggest they arise from a desire to attract membership in the 21st century is pretty ignorant.

I was the original person who replied. My best friend growing up belonged to a PCUSA church and I frequently tagged along with his family to various church things. My first wife also went to a PCUSA church and I occasionally went with her. Maybe it was just purely me. But I remember little very discussion of Jesus and no discussion of the cross, or substitutionary atonement. In my early 40s, I came across Tim Keller for the first time. Despite seeming like I knew a lot about Christianity, I felt like I was hearing about a new religion for the first time after finding Keller’s sermons and then reading his books. What Christianity actually meant, why it was profoundly deeper than “just do good stuff and maybe get to heaven,” Jesus becoming beautiful to me, developing a personal relationship with Jesus, seeing the Gospel actually change the worst habits in my life up until that point — it was nothing like the religion I grew up with or was around as a young adult. Again, maybe it was just me, but it’s my experience in talking to other mainline Protestants, that they do not, by and large, have a faith that truly changes them.

Anonymous wrote:First off, I am an atheist. Admittedly, I have a cynical view of religion. Also, my vantage point is Bethesda.

I can't help but notice that pretty much every church I see has a flag, placard, or message out front targeting a single demographic: the LGBT community. Not asians, not hispanics, not men, not women, not young, not old - LGBT.

Churches exist for one reason: to propagate themselves. That requires money and customers. So, it must be that singularly advertising to LGBT is a smart business move. Its just a surprising one, given the % of population and, I would think, I general dis-inclination toward religion.

So what is the deal? Smart business move? Meaningless signaling? Something else?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

The bolded is not in line with my experience at all, as Presbyterian USA.
But more relevantly, there are dozens of different Protestant denominations with different beliefs, e.g., denominations that as a matter of doctrine are not overly concerned with the cross. These differences have deep historical and theological roots. You're entitled to think their beliefs are incorrect, but to suggest they arise from a desire to attract membership in the 21st century is pretty ignorant.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

But this hardly means Christianity is dead. I go to a mega church in a comfortable modern building where 3,000-4,000 people attend every Sunday. We are apolitical. But we strongly preach the true Gospel — that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died for our sins, and that we are saved solely through our faith in him.

The reality is that true Christianity has a certain perspective on LGBT relationships. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t treat people with love and respect regardless of this issue. My own church will not perform same-sex weddings but says that it is a matter of conscience whether you attend one outside of our church, and they have a “pro” and “con” argument on the website. I personally have no issue attending a same-sex marriage ceremony myself. I’m comfortable with that compromise.

But there is no doubt that when many mainline Protestant churches started to lose members, one key response was to reverse course on what had beeen church doctrine for thousands of years. I don’t think they did this for strong theological reasons because the theological justifications are flimsy when you read the New Testament and understand what marriage is in the Christian context.

Many serious Christians have left these pews as a result and now attend church elsewhere, like mine, where the churches are thriving. People want a church that has real theology and something they can believe in — not just progressive politics that they can get anywhere else.

Mainline Protestants can make up their own minds as to whether this was a wise strategy.

Disagree. People want a church where they can feel superior. Don't you feel superior to those stupid liberal protestants? and the stupid Roman Catholics?

Meanwhile, the Catholics and liberal protestants feel superior to you. Athiests feel superior without any religious affiliation at all - and they hate to think that Donald Trump might be an atheist. They think of atheists as good people, like them, and don't think of Trump as a good person. But the evangelicals love him! Which is why he pretends to be religious. It's his malignant narcissism at work.

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

But this hardly means Christianity is dead. I go to a mega church in a comfortable modern building where 3,000-4,000 people attend every Sunday. We are apolitical. But we strongly preach the true Gospel — that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died for our sins, and that we are saved solely through our faith in him.

The reality is that true Christianity has a certain perspective on LGBT relationships. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t treat people with love and respect regardless of this issue. My own church will not perform same-sex weddings but says that it is a matter of conscience whether you attend one outside of our church, and they have a “pro” and “con” argument on the website. I personally have no issue attending a same-sex marriage ceremony myself. I’m comfortable with that compromise.

But there is no doubt that when many mainline Protestant churches started to lose members, one key response was to reverse course on what had beeen church doctrine for thousands of years. I don’t think they did this for strong theological reasons because the theological justifications are flimsy when you read the New Testament and understand what marriage is in the Christian context.

Many serious Christians have left these pews as a result and now attend church elsewhere, like mine, where the churches are thriving. People want a church that has real theology and something they can believe in — not just progressive politics that they can get anywhere else.

Mainline Protestants can make up their own minds as to whether this was a wise strategy.

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

But this hardly means Christianity is dead. I go to a mega church in a comfortable modern building where 3,000-4,000 people attend every Sunday. We are apolitical. But we strongly preach the true Gospel — that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died for our sins, and that we are saved solely through our faith in him.

The reality is that true Christianity has a certain perspective on LGBT relationships. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t treat people with love and respect regardless of this issue. My own church will not perform same-sex weddings but says that it is a matter of conscience whether you attend one outside of our church, and they have a “pro” and “con” argument on the website. I personally have no issue attending a same-sex marriage ceremony myself. I’m comfortable with that compromise.

But there is no doubt that when many mainline Protestant churches started to lose members, one key response was to reverse course on what had beeen church doctrine for thousands of years. I don’t think they did this for strong theological reasons because the theological justifications are flimsy when you read the New Testament and understand what marriage is in the Christian context.

Many serious Christians have left these pews as a result and now attend church elsewhere, like mine, where the churches are thriving. People want a church that has real theology and something they can believe in — not just progressive politics that they can get anywhere else.

Mainline Protestants can make up their own minds as to whether this was a wise strategy.

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.