Anonymous wrote:Wow the poor emotional regulation and ‘lookin for fight’ stance - If Employee2 acts like the OP, or takes advice from the OP, it’s employee2 that is getting the boot. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

I won't say because I don't even know who you are. I also don't know what your background is and whether you speak from a position of knowledge. You didn't demonstrate enough knowledge of the case, you seem to advocate for whatever comes from HR. Do you expect emotional regulation to the point where HR runs all over you?

Wow the poor emotional regulation and ‘lookin for fight’ stance - If Employee2 acts like the OP, or takes advice from the OP, it’s employee2 that is getting the boot. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in HR and this is really weird and dumb of Hr as they are handing Ee 1 a way to challenge their termination.

I’m assuming there is no union here?

I think the best Ee 2 can do is request to put a written response on their personnel file which should be as succinct as possible and just set out the facts. Ideally. Ee 2 could also try their managers to write a letter for the file that says it was very helpful for ee 2 to point out these deficiencies, and that he/she does not see any basis for concluding that reporting the deficiencies in any way violated company policy.

+1. I'm not in HR, but as a manager that's dealt with a good number of issues and also with HR, I agree with this.

The HR reaction is very strange, and seems to give EE2 a case for retaliation - EE2 reports deficiencies leading to EE1's PIP. Then EE1 abuses the HR process to have a letter of warning placed in EE2s personnel file. Management really should be going to bat here.

If EE2 can't get the rebuttal in their file I do think an employment lawyer is the next step. There's not really a lawsuit here at this point, but the threat of legal action might get the company to do something about HR.

A rebuttal letter is not enough. The warning letter should be retracted because it contains unsubstantiated claims and allegations. HR even lied to Employee 2 manager to convince them to sign the warning letter. I could be nicer to HR and say that they "misinterpreted facts" instead of "lying". If employee 2 direct manager was aware how HR twisted the facts, they would have not signed the warning letter.

How did HR lie to the manager? You would think that they vetted the process through legal.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in HR and this is really weird and dumb of Hr as they are handing Ee 1 a way to challenge their termination.

I’m assuming there is no union here?

I think the best Ee 2 can do is request to put a written response on their personnel file which should be as succinct as possible and just set out the facts. Ideally. Ee 2 could also try their managers to write a letter for the file that says it was very helpful for ee 2 to point out these deficiencies, and that he/she does not see any basis for concluding that reporting the deficiencies in any way violated company policy.

This is good to hear from and HR person and lines up with our thinking. That's likely exactly what Employee 1 is looking for because the writing was on the wall once they were placed on PIP. You are correct - there is no union.

The problem is that HR refuses to meet or engage in any way. I believe HR is legally required to provide employees guidance on HR issues, including how they can challenge HR decisions. Looking for advice on this forum is the last resort to find solutions that don't cost an arm and a leg. An employment attorney will come next if we cannot avoid going that route.

Who is “our” and “we”?

"Our" and "we" refer to the family. As I mentioned in a different post, Employee 2 reads this forum only when I send them a link (most likely doesn't know that this thread even exists).

Professional in HR space (NALNLA).

Your assumptions OP are factually incorrect and if I had to guess I’d bet this is an issue that one of your kids is dealing with. You’re trying to be helpful but you’re going to harm your family members career. You’re welcome to pay for an employment attorney to tell you the same thing.

Does your family member have an employment contract or are they at will? If they are at will, they can be fired just because(unless they work for a for cause employer, most people do not). Annoying HR by saying that HR is inept is a great way to find themselves unemployed. It’s a brutal market right now, tread carefully.

The primary function of HR is to protect the organization and mitigate risk. It also manages basic employment functions like benefits and payroll. None of that is making sure that employees are being treated fairly, unless that mitigates legal risk.

Why did your family member go to HR about a peer? Were they being harmed(like sexually harassed) by the peer? Or was the peer getting away with stuff that your family member thought was unfair? This seems like your family member is acting outside their leadership scope, which they’ve now been warned about and should move on from.

What makes you think that Employee 2 went to HR about Employee 1? That never happened. Employee 1 went to HR to complain after being placed on PIP. Clearly retaliatory, but HR pretended not to notice the sequence of events. Employee 2 reported failed experiments to their direct manager and the reason (well documented) was Employee 1 not doing their job properly. It was a high-stakes project that almost failed because of Employee 1. The project was eventually completed after Employee 1 was removed from the project.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in HR and this is really weird and dumb of Hr as they are handing Ee 1 a way to challenge their termination.

I’m assuming there is no union here?

I think the best Ee 2 can do is request to put a written response on their personnel file which should be as succinct as possible and just set out the facts. Ideally. Ee 2 could also try their managers to write a letter for the file that says it was very helpful for ee 2 to point out these deficiencies, and that he/she does not see any basis for concluding that reporting the deficiencies in any way violated company policy.

This is good to hear from and HR person and lines up with our thinking. That's likely exactly what Employee 1 is looking for because the writing was on the wall once they were placed on PIP. You are correct - there is no union.

The problem is that HR refuses to meet or engage in any way. I believe HR is legally required to provide employees guidance on HR issues, including how they can challenge HR decisions. Looking for advice on this forum is the last resort to find solutions that don't cost an arm and a leg. An employment attorney will come next if we cannot avoid going that route.

Who is “our” and “we”?

"Our" and "we" refer to the family. As I mentioned in a different post, Employee 2 reads this forum only when I send them a link (most likely doesn't know that this thread even exists).

Professional in HR space (NALNLA).

Your assumptions OP are factually incorrect and if I had to guess I’d bet this is an issue that one of your kids is dealing with. You’re trying to be helpful but you’re going to harm your family members career. You’re welcome to pay for an employment attorney to tell you the same thing.

Does your family member have an employment contract or are they at will? If they are at will, they can be fired just because(unless they work for a for cause employer, most people do not). Annoying HR by saying that HR is inept is a great way to find themselves unemployed. It’s a brutal market right now, tread carefully.

The primary function of HR is to protect the organization and mitigate risk. It also manages basic employment functions like benefits and payroll. None of that is making sure that employees are being treated fairly, unless that mitigates legal risk.

Why did your family member go to HR about a peer? Were they being harmed(like sexually harassed) by the peer? Or was the peer getting away with stuff that your family member thought was unfair? This seems like your family member is acting outside their leadership scope, which they’ve now been warned about and should move on from.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in HR and this is really weird and dumb of Hr as they are handing Ee 1 a way to challenge their termination.

I’m assuming there is no union here?

I think the best Ee 2 can do is request to put a written response on their personnel file which should be as succinct as possible and just set out the facts. Ideally. Ee 2 could also try their managers to write a letter for the file that says it was very helpful for ee 2 to point out these deficiencies, and that he/she does not see any basis for concluding that reporting the deficiencies in any way violated company policy.

This is good to hear from and HR person and lines up with our thinking. That's likely exactly what Employee 1 is looking for because the writing was on the wall once they were placed on PIP. You are correct - there is no union.

The problem is that HR refuses to meet or engage in any way. I believe HR is legally required to provide employees guidance on HR issues, including how they can challenge HR decisions. Looking for advice on this forum is the last resort to find solutions that don't cost an arm and a leg. An employment attorney will come next if we cannot avoid going that route.

Who is “our” and “we”?

"Our" and "we" refer to the family. As I mentioned in a different post, Employee 2 reads this forum only when I send them a link (most likely doesn't know that this thread even exists).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in HR and this is really weird and dumb of Hr as they are handing Ee 1 a way to challenge their termination.

I’m assuming there is no union here?

I think the best Ee 2 can do is request to put a written response on their personnel file which should be as succinct as possible and just set out the facts. Ideally. Ee 2 could also try their managers to write a letter for the file that says it was very helpful for ee 2 to point out these deficiencies, and that he/she does not see any basis for concluding that reporting the deficiencies in any way violated company policy.

+1. I'm not in HR, but as a manager that's dealt with a good number of issues and also with HR, I agree with this.

The HR reaction is very strange, and seems to give EE2 a case for retaliation - EE2 reports deficiencies leading to EE1's PIP. Then EE1 abuses the HR process to have a letter of warning placed in EE2s personnel file. Management really should be going to bat here.

If EE2 can't get the rebuttal in their file I do think an employment lawyer is the next step. There's not really a lawsuit here at this point, but the threat of legal action might get the company to do something about HR.

A rebuttal letter is not enough. The warning letter should be retracted because it contains unsubstantiated claims and allegations. HR even lied to Employee 2 manager to convince them to sign the warning letter. I could be nicer to HR and say that they "misinterpreted facts" instead of "lying". If employee 2 direct manager was aware how HR twisted the facts, they would have not signed the warning letter.

Anonymous wrote:You don’t know that the person will be removed.

I agree. I will believe this when I see it, but I don't trust the gut instinct of people who "know" without actually knowing.