Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I could not believe how many things Gibson nailed perfectly. She was trying to gently explain to that one mother there is a power differential and that together with a strong personality makes it hard to do "conflict resolution" with some parents. I know with my mother anytime I gently brought up anything it was "I am your mother! You must...."

She also was perfect with the whole idea of how people are under much more stress now. I danced around my mother's difficult behavior and people pleased for decades to keep the peace. Between covid lockdown, my husband's prolonged illness, my father in law's emergency and then our daughter's emergency surgery over the course of several years, I had nothing left to give and through it all mom was all "me, me, me" and trying every tactic possible to manipulate. She did not have an ounce of empathy, just fury that my attention was not on her. I finally understood I could try to appease her and she would not be satisfied, or I could distance and do nothing and she would not be satisfied, but I would time to recover for all this mess.

There is nothing I miss. I have some contact, but when she decides to punish me and have none, it's even better. I only mourn what I never had, but mostly I have accepted that.

Exactly regarding how she tried to address the mother who clearly showed disdain for her daughter. Maybe this is my bias but to me that mother seemed very satisfied that she was right and would win any argument (what she was calling a discussion). Both Coleman and that mom had an aggressive manner that they were trying to keep in check.

That tattoo mother comes across as a bully pretending to be into conflict resolution. She wasted too much time trying to convince the public her daughter stinks. If her daughter is so terrible, then why is this mother so interested in resolving things. She definitely seemed emotionally stunted. Her daughter may be too for all I know but why try to humiliate her on TV? Coleman is still salty and lacks much insight. He basically learned the things to say to play along, but in his heart, he seems like he still resents his daughter for not falling into line.

Both Coleman and tattoo mom used a certain phrasing that I think is very telling -- I thought it was interesting no one else called it out because I bet the other two experts clocked it for sure.

They both talked about how they think of themselves as "good parents" and were upset and defensive when they were told they were "bad parents." Coleman then also spoke about how it's important that people understand that estrangement happens to "good parents" (to applause from some of the people there.

I understand why tattoo mom said this and it's a common issue in any kind of personal conflict -- people often experience criticism as someone telling them "you are bad." Many people struggle with the idea that doing something hurtful, or someone being mad at you, is not evidence that you are "bad." Thinking this way tends to lead to defensiveness, gaslighting, tactics like DARVO (stands for deny-attack-reverse-victim-and-offender and refers to an abuse tactic people use to avoid responsibility for their behavior by turning it around on their accuser). But it's common.

That Coleman engages in this language reveals not only that he still has a ton of work to do on himself, but the limitations of his advice for parents in this situation. Reducing people to "good" and "bad" is not a useful way to resolve conflict or move past emotional wounds. Because it prevents people from accountability for hurtful behavior, since admitting they hurt someone would be tantamount to admitting they are bad.

The emotional maturity Gibson is talking about comes from someone who is secure enough in themselves to be okay admitting they may have done something that hurt someone else, and taking responsibility for that behavior even if it was done accidentally or with love. That's what the helicopter dad did. He was secure enough in himself, and in his love for his daughter, to accept that he had screwed up. He didn't mean to -- he genuinely thought that his behavior was helping to protect his daughter, keep her safe, and keep her on the right track. But when she laid out for him how his behavior had made her feel (powerless, under his thumb, not allowed to make her own decisions or cut her own path) he realized he'd erred. And in being willing to admit that, apologize for it, and work with his daughter to change his behavior and their relationship, he demonstrated that he is secure in himself. Admitting he screwed up is not the same as admitting he's bad. He's just a person who tried his best, made a mistake, and then fixed his mistake. EVERYONE makes mistakes. Being unwilling to admit yours is a mark of immaturity and will stunt all your relationships.

Coleman should have moved past the good/bad framework by now. It's about accountability, accepting one another's subjective experience, and being willing to adjust ones behavior out of respect for one another. No good, no bad, just flawed people doing their best out of love for one another.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting to hear that 1/3 of Americans experience estrangement. It’s not widely discussed—or hadn’t been until recently.

Until relatively recently, low contact was within acceptable normal for many people. If you moved to the opposite coast, you could visit once a year, send a few cards and talk on the phone occasionally, and no one would accuse you of abandoning your parents. Now with the many ways of keeping in constant contact, not doing this raises questions and requires admitting things at least to yourself.

I wonder how many of these modern estrangements happen because one person wants what you are describing (a kind of casual low contact based on distance and just leading different lives) and other wants a super connected, close relationship that matches what is shown as ideal on social media. The person with higher expectations keeps pushing until the person with lower expectations gets fed up (at the "lack of boundaries" in modern terms) and cuts them off entirely.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, OP, I didn't know about this but will definitely check this out. I found Lindsay Gibson's books really life changing so that's enough to get me interested.

I am not estranged from my parents. In fact, I credit Gibsons books with helping me figure out a way to maintain a relationship with them without sacrificing my own mental health or cutting them off entirely. However, my sister *is* estranged from them.

Related to the golden child dynamic OP raises, here's a twist: my sister was absolutely the golden child in our family (4 kids) and I think that's why she wound up going NC. Being a golden child in a dysfunctional family can lead to really bad enmeshment, which is what happened with my sister, and it became very hard for her to start untangling that once she recognized how unhealthy it was. So I think she's gone NC largely because she could not find better ways to set boundaries.

I think it has been easier for me to set boundaries because, as one of four, I was largely ignored as a child and into adulthood. That has had some pretty significant negative impacts on me (thus how I wound up reading multiple books on emotional neglect) but I think it offered a short cut to figuring out to set better emotional boundaries with my family. My parents and I are not close, but they are in my life, we see each other sometimes, and my own child has affectionate feelings towards them (feelings I facilitate by ensuring we don't spend enough time with them for DD to get drawn into their drama).

Interesting. Is your sister the eldest? Wondering if it's not exactly "golden," but more eldest daughter syndrome. That she's golden because she takes care of everyone?

I'm going to look at the book, thanks and to OP for starting this thread.

No she's not the oldest but she is the eldest daughter. She doesn't/didn't take care of us or our parents. She was the golden child because she was a cheerleader in high school and on the homecoming court, and because she got married and had kids before the rest of us, and had the most kids. These are things my parents greatly value because it made them look good to their peers. It's definitely golden child.

Anonymous wrote:Interesting to hear that 1/3 of Americans experience estrangement. It’s not widely discussed—or hadn’t been until recently.

Until relatively recently, low contact was within acceptable normal for many people. If you moved to the opposite coast, you could visit once a year, send a few cards and talk on the phone occasionally, and no one would accuse you of abandoning your parents. Now with the many ways of keeping in constant contact, not doing this raises questions and requires admitting things at least to yourself.

My sister's abusive ex-husband is truly narcissistic and abusive according to the DSM. He’s been physically abusive, verbally abusive, and emotionally abusive. I had to go no contact with him after I realized he was abusing my sister (strangulation, hit her, threats, controlling, etc.) in order to maintain my own sanity and help her get out to safety.

The abusive-ex blames everyone but himself for his relationship with his kids. He’s used Joshua Coleman’s book to try to manipulate the courts and my niece and nephew and accuse my sister of parental alienation. Now he uses Coleman’s techniques (apology letters) as a form of manipulation as do many other manipulative or immature parents to fake for the courts their care and concern for their kids.

The fact that Joshua Coleman got defensive first when his daughter raised these issues raises a red flag for me. It shows a real lack of self-insight which is concerning in a therapist. I know he says he realizes he responded unempathetically but his initial response reveals his nature. I mean he clearly made it all about himself at first and ittook 3 years to figure it out. I’m happy he figured it out and made the effort but even his caution to the young couple that went no contact centered the parents. If the young couple’s kids go no contact because their parents can’t respect them and accept and love them for who they are then that’s on them.

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, OP, I didn't know about this but will definitely check this out. I found Lindsay Gibson's books really life changing so that's enough to get me interested.

I am not estranged from my parents. In fact, I credit Gibsons books with helping me figure out a way to maintain a relationship with them without sacrificing my own mental health or cutting them off entirely. However, my sister *is* estranged from them.

Related to the golden child dynamic OP raises, here's a twist: my sister was absolutely the golden child in our family (4 kids) and I think that's why she wound up going NC. Being a golden child in a dysfunctional family can lead to really bad enmeshment, which is what happened with my sister, and it became very hard for her to start untangling that once she recognized how unhealthy it was. So I think she's gone NC largely because she could not find better ways to set boundaries.

I think it has been easier for me to set boundaries because, as one of four, I was largely ignored as a child and into adulthood. That has had some pretty significant negative impacts on me (thus how I wound up reading multiple books on emotional neglect) but I think it offered a short cut to figuring out to set better emotional boundaries with my family. My parents and I are not close, but they are in my life, we see each other sometimes, and my own child has affectionate feelings towards them (feelings I facilitate by ensuring we don't spend enough time with them for DD to get drawn into their drama).

Interesting. Is your sister the eldest? Wondering if it's not exactly "golden," but more eldest daughter syndrome. That she's golden because she takes care of everyone?

I'm going to look at the book, thanks and to OP for starting this thread.

I cannot with all the people who seem to think this is the hardest time in human history and no one has ever had it this bad ever. Hothouse flowers all of them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I could not believe how many things Gibson nailed perfectly. She was trying to gently explain to that one mother there is a power differential and that together with a strong personality makes it hard to do "conflict resolution" with some parents. I know with my mother anytime I gently brought up anything it was "I am your mother! You must...."

She also was perfect with the whole idea of how people are under much more stress now. I danced around my mother's difficult behavior and people pleased for decades to keep the peace. Between covid lockdown, my husband's prolonged illness, my father in law's emergency and then our daughter's emergency surgery over the course of several years, I had nothing left to give and through it all mom was all "me, me, me" and trying every tactic possible to manipulate. She did not have an ounce of empathy, just fury that my attention was not on her. I finally understood I could try to appease her and she would not be satisfied, or I could distance and do nothing and she would not be satisfied, but I would time to recover for all this mess.

There is nothing I miss. I have some contact, but when she decides to punish me and have none, it's even better. I only mourn what I never had, but mostly I have accepted that.

Exactly regarding how she tried to address the mother who clearly showed disdain for her daughter. Maybe this is my bias but to me that mother seemed very satisfied that she was right and would win any argument (what she was calling a discussion). Both Coleman and that mom had an aggressive manner that they were trying to keep in check.

That tattoo mother comes across as a bully pretending to be into conflict resolution. She wasted too much time trying to convince the public her daughter stinks. If her daughter is so terrible, then why is this mother so interested in resolving things. She definitely seemed emotionally stunted. Her daughter may be too for all I know but why try to humiliate her on TV? Coleman is still salty and lacks much insight. He basically learned the things to say to play along, but in his heart, he seems like he still resents his daughter for not falling into line.

Anonymous wrote: I could not believe how many things Gibson nailed perfectly. She was trying to gently explain to that one mother there is a power differential and that together with a strong personality makes it hard to do "conflict resolution" with some parents. I know with my mother anytime I gently brought up anything it was "I am your mother! You must...."

She also was perfect with the whole idea of how people are under much more stress now. I danced around my mother's difficult behavior and people pleased for decades to keep the peace. Between covid lockdown, my husband's prolonged illness, my father in law's emergency and then our daughter's emergency surgery over the course of several years, I had nothing left to give and through it all mom was all "me, me, me" and trying every tactic possible to manipulate. She did not have an ounce of empathy, just fury that my attention was not on her. I finally understood I could try to appease her and she would not be satisfied, or I could distance and do nothing and she would not be satisfied, but I would time to recover for all this mess.

There is nothing I miss. I have some contact, but when she decides to punish me and have none, it's even better. I only mourn what I never had, but mostly I have accepted that.

Exactly regarding how she tried to address the mother who clearly showed disdain for her daughter. Maybe this is my bias but to me that mother seemed very satisfied that she was right and would win any argument (what she was calling a discussion). Both Coleman and that mom had an aggressive manner that they were trying to keep in check.

Anonymous wrote: I could not believe how many things Gibson nailed perfectly. She was trying to gently explain to that one mother there is a power differential and that together with a strong personality makes it hard to do "conflict resolution" with some parents. I know with my mother anytime I gently brought up anything it was "I am your mother! You must...."

She also was perfect with the whole idea of how people are under much more stress now. I danced around my mother's difficult behavior and people pleased for decades to keep the peace. Between covid lockdown, my husband's prolonged illness, my father in law's emergency and then our daughter's emergency surgery over the course of several years, I had nothing left to give and through it all mom was all "me, me, me" and trying every tactic possible to manipulate. She did not have an ounce of empathy, just fury that my attention was not on her. I finally understood I could try to appease her and she would not be satisfied, or I could distance and do nothing and she would not be satisfied, but I would time to recover for all this mess.

There is nothing I miss. I have some contact, but when she decides to punish me and have none, it's even better. I only mourn what I never had, but mostly I have accepted that.

I also loved that comment from Gibson on how much stress people are under now. The expectations for everything are so high at work, as a parent, from friends. But work pays you money, your kids are totally dependent on you, and your friends actually treat you nicely (hopefully). If you have a functional relationship with your parents, it should contribute positively to all that, be a source of security and meaning. But when it's dysfunctional, and requires a level of patience and restraint even beyond what parenting requires, you just... run out.

Anonymous wrote:Had no idea Oprah was even still alive, much less doing anything in public.

And guess what! She’s lost weight!

Back in the "good old days" in the US many people in my family moved across country or a few states over, and basically just wrote an occasional letter or called on special holidays. They would show up for weddings and funerals and that's it.

This time around, I am the family scapegoat. It's very difficult to maintain a relationship with my siblings when they continue to talk to and have a relationship with my mom. It makes me want to be estranged from all of them, but the siblings did nothing wrong. They recognize that my mom treats me differently, and their ropes with Mom seem to be much longer than mine, but I do try and maintain relationships with them.
It's hard for all involved.

I could not believe how many things Gibson nailed perfectly. She was trying to gently explain to that one mother there is a power differential and that together with a strong personality makes it hard to do "conflict resolution" with some parents. I know with my mother anytime I gently brought up anything it was "I am your mother! You must...."

She also was perfect with the whole idea of how people are under much more stress now. I danced around my mother's difficult behavior and people pleased for decades to keep the peace. Between covid lockdown, my husband's prolonged illness, my father in law's emergency and then our daughter's emergency surgery over the course of several years, I had nothing left to give and through it all mom was all "me, me, me" and trying every tactic possible to manipulate. She did not have an ounce of empathy, just fury that my attention was not on her. I finally understood I could try to appease her and she would not be satisfied, or I could distance and do nothing and she would not be satisfied, but I would time to recover for all this mess.

There is nothing I miss. I have some contact, but when she decides to punish me and have none, it's even better. I only mourn what I never had, but mostly I have accepted that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting to hear that 1/3 of Americans experience estrangement. It’s not widely discussed—or hadn’t been until recently.

I believe it if you include adult siblings. My dad is from a larger family (second youngest of 6 kids, one of his brothers died relatively young in an accident unmarried and no kids but the rest are still alive and very healthy in their 60s/70s), and my dad and 2 of his siblings are estranged from a brother, with another brother remaining fairly neutral throughout. This has been going on for around 20 years now.

+1

I think estrangement has been around longer and been more common than people today seem to understand. I have a grandmother who didn't speak to her sister for like 30 years. My dad went over a decade without speaking to one of his brothers. My husband has an uncle he was unaware of until he died, because he was estranged from his entire family for most of his life (uncle was gay, this explains that estrangement and also is very common for gay people prior to like 2000 because so many families had zero tolerance for homosexuality at that time).

So much of the estrangement today is part of generational patterns, not some hot new trend therapists or tik tokers invented. I think expectations of familial closeness even into adulthood have increased in recent decades, making estrangement feel more upsetting than it once was. Also the fact that thanks to technology, it's possible for people anywhere to be in touch with their family no matter how far the distance, creates an expectation that they WILL be in touch with their families. And also that that contact will be affectionate and have a certain quality. But think of all the people who moved or immigrated in the 20th century and literally never saw their families again as a result. Some of them may have maintained affectionate relationship via mail, but many didn't. Perhaps sometimes they stayed in contact but it was perfunctory -- here is what is happening in my life, here is a photo of my family. There were grandparents who never met their grandchildren. Siblings who never saw each other again after the war or after one of them moved away.

Also, perhaps this distance made it easier for people to maintain affectionate feelings for family. If you barely see them and only communicate via letter... this is like a natural form of detachment because you literally never speak directly to each other. Easier to stick to safe subjects, avoid engaging with annoying comments, and not get drawn into personal drama when you are responding to one another via letters that take weeks or months to get there. Even when it was just the telephone -- long distance calls cost money, the connection wasn't always great, and people likely kept it cordial more easily because who could afford the drama?

It's funny how we never talk about the downsides to families of the high level of connectivity in the modern world but they are there. People will talk about the downsides of being tethered to work via your phone all the time, even on weekends and vacations. Well, that is true for family too. There are times when I wish my mother was not capable of reaching me by phone literally anywhere, anytime, for any reason. It would sometimes be better if she had to leave a message on my home answering machine, or send me a letter that forced her to consider and articulate what she wanted to say, and then I could get back to her when I was ready.

Excellent points PPs.

Maybe having some sort of digital boundaries would help (not picking up the phone, shorter text replies).