Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math is more concrete so it is easier to measure whether you know it or not. The skills involved in other areas are more judgment-based.

I was super accelerated in HS in the early 90s. In 6th grade they put me and several others in a 7th grade math class. So we took Calc as juniors. That was very rare - in my very competitive suburban public HS where 30-40 kids went to Ivies each year, only about five of us per year were pushed ahead.

I think the obsession with accelerating kids has gone overboard. The kids are super accelerated and what does this get them when they get to college? Not much. The rush to take countless APs as early as possible is nuts. And it is not because your precious genius snowflake is bored and needs to be challenged more. There are different ways to challenge a child and admissions committees have gotten lazy and let APs be a way for them to measure that.

It is nice that an increasing number of private schools have pushed back at this and abandoned APs. And their kids still get into great schools, and not solely because of money and/or legacy status. I recognize that for some kids, it is a way to save money by getting credits and graduating early, but for many, it is a false badge of perceived intellect. There is no rush.

But I'm sure all of the tiger magnet school parents will bite my head off on this.

I agree +100. Spouse and I were accelerated in HS and quickly realized in college that we didn't learn math well at all - even with 5s on AP exams and placing into higher math at Ivy undergrads. I've been thinking about math curriculum and math tracks for as long as we've had our kids. Two who are on the advanced math track and find no trouble with acceleration and one who has more trouble with acceleration but was always advanced in reading and writing. The kids have different strengths and I can't say that one is smarter or will be more successful than the other... the one strong in reading and writing began to shine junior year in AP Lang when it was clear that he was one of the best in the class. The recognitions came later with department awards, writing awards, etc. My other math kids had recognition early by being pulled out for special math, etc, but all that doesn't last long bc other kids catch up. Math is easy to measure and very easy to accelerate when kids are young and sponges. It's an easy way for moms to compare their kids with others. I'm glad all that is behind me now

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because it is the one subject where the ed policy trend folks have not been able to deny that pure ability coupled with hard study is actually at the core. Everything else they can dumb down and decelerate by redefining outcomes. They try with math (see SF) but seem to have failed.

This is part of it but not all of it.

Another aspect is that STEM subjects have actual objective answers (with very rare exceptions). Grading any essay is inherently subjective.

I partially agree. They have undercut or gotten rid of the aspects of the humanities that are more objective - spelling, grammar, writing style, historical facts and the ability to synthesize them. Languages are certainly objective too. I was told flat out by the MS language teacher that they don’t even try to teach any grammar in 6th grade and don’t grade on spelling or even do vocabulary tests. With a foundation like this it is no wonder that there are not the same acceleration opportunities for languages in HS.

Anonymous wrote:Math is more concrete so it is easier to measure whether you know it or not. The skills involved in other areas are more judgment-based.

I was super accelerated in HS in the early 90s. In 6th grade they put me and several others in a 7th grade math class. So we took Calc as juniors. That was very rare - in my very competitive suburban public HS where 30-40 kids went to Ivies each year, only about five of us per year were pushed ahead.

I think the obsession with accelerating kids has gone overboard. The kids are super accelerated and what does this get them when they get to college? Not much. The rush to take countless APs as early as possible is nuts. And it is not because your precious genius snowflake is bored and needs to be challenged more. There are different ways to challenge a child and admissions committees have gotten lazy and let APs be a way for them to measure that.

It is nice that an increasing number of private schools have pushed back at this and abandoned APs. And their kids still get into great schools, and not solely because of money and/or legacy status. I recognize that for some kids, it is a way to save money by getting credits and graduating early, but for many, it is a false badge of perceived intellect. There is no rush.

But I'm sure all of the tiger magnet school parents will bite my head off on this.

Anonymous wrote:My kid is in AP Calc BC in 10th grade. If there was an accelerated pathway for writing, she'd take it. But she can't, because the electives aren't any better than AP Lang and AP Lit (taken respectively in 11th and 12th), so there's no point. The English curriculum in MCPS is really bad. Thank goodness she reads and writes for pleasure, at home. She's in all AP classes for other things like APUSH and AP Physics C. All of it is easy for her.

Math is the one discipline where logical and critical thinking skills are all you need. Maturity and social skills are not needed. If you think about it for half a second, you'll recognize that all other disciplines need some basic level of understanding of human relationships. Very young, immature people can do very well in math. It's truly for anyone with the patience to cogitate.

This is why math, above any other subject, has been prized by scholars over the centuries of human civilization.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) Math is rules-based and therefore can be crammed.

2) Sophisticated written expression often depends on reading at an advanced level. Including archaic and ponderous books that are no longer mainstream. This is very time consuming and modern culture works against finding the time for it.

3) Jobs that involve more math in the job (or just higher math level attainment) tend to pay better so there's a reinforcement loop there.

4) Math is still associated with men doing well/specializing in it. So it has a little bit of patriarchal halo.

5) Calculus has evolved into an agreed component of the selective college application arms race. I believe sheer AP count is an equivalent phenomenon.

I agree with you about everything except 1. Lots of subjects have a lot of content that could be “crammed” (ie learned) but math is pretty much the only subject where it is still accepted that learning content matters and is a goal. Every other subject has been dumbed down to something akin to personal development goals. To wit the lack of spelling and grammar instruction and the increasing decline in any meaningful volume of reading and writing in humanities classes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is in AP Calc BC in 10th grade. If there was an accelerated pathway for writing, she'd take it. But she can't, because the electives aren't any better than AP Lang and AP Lit (taken respectively in 11th and 12th), so there's no point. The English curriculum in MCPS is really bad. Thank goodness she reads and writes for pleasure, at home. She's in all AP classes for other things like APUSH and AP Physics C. All of it is easy for her.

Math is the one discipline where logical and critical thinking skills are all you need. Maturity and social skills are not needed. If you think about it for half a second, you'll recognize that all other disciplines need some basic level of understanding of human relationships. Very young, immature people can do very well in math. It's truly for anyone with the patience to cogitate.

This is why math, above any other subject, has been prized by scholars over the centuries of human civilization.

This is a very weird take. Math has definitely not been prized over other disciplines. It is currently the only discipline kids are allowed to accelerate in public schools because we have dumbed down the rest of the subjects, but the dumber-downers are not actually smart enough to dumb down math. they try by blocking advanced course work but that is all they can do.

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

Anonymous wrote:Any Ivy plus candidate should be in Calc BC by 10th grade. That isn't up for debate. As for classes like English Comp, etc. where one could take classes at the local college, many colleges have age requirements based on the content that will be taught. Much different to accelerate in that respect. However, taking Intro Macro and Micro classes as an 8th grader at the local college will be allowed.

Anonymous wrote:Go to a private HS.

It’s part of the reason so many private high schools are feeders to the most elite colleges. They focus on the “accelerated humanities” track as well - at a very high-level and a degree of sophistication you would ordinarily find in college level classes.

Colleges want that preparedness and level of intellectual discourse/intellectual vitality. They want you doing humanities-based independent studies in school… Not in a pay-to-play research organization outside of high school… but with a high school teacher on a niche or specialized area of interest in the humanities. With an academic written work product.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because it is the one subject where the ed policy trend folks have not been able to deny that pure ability coupled with hard study is actually at the core. Everything else they can dumb down and decelerate by redefining outcomes. They try with math (see SF) but seem to have failed.

This is part of it but not all of it.

Another aspect is that STEM subjects have actual objective answers (with very rare exceptions). Grading any essay is inherently subjective.

Anonymous wrote:Because it is the one subject where the ed policy trend folks have not been able to deny that pure ability coupled with hard study is actually at the core. Everything else they can dumb down and decelerate by redefining outcomes. They try with math (see SF) but seem to have failed.