Anonymous wrote:OP Here- We don’t want it to get to the point of having her kicked out of the house or stop supporting her financially. But she doesn’t want any help and won’t acknowledge the drinking problem. Naturally she’s super bright which is why she lucked out and got into a better college than we thought she would with her high SAT score. She went to class but didn’t do a lot of the work so I know she was trying but struggling. She told me she physically felt like she couldn’t just sit down and do it. She’d be in class and everyone would be working on an assignment but she’d just always feel the need to push it off and didn’t have energy to do it. She did the easier assignments but still failed cause they only made up a smaller portion of her grade in each class. The main reason she’s says she doesn’t want job is because she is very fearful/anxious of bad things that happen in the world so she’s afraid of experiencing something bad at work like crime, assault, violence, abuse, etc. She needs therapy but won’t attend. She’s always been ambitious and loved learning but never really was fond about having to work. DH and I are on the same page with this and looking for solutions.

Did something happen to her at school? I'm serious. I agree with a pp, there is something else at play here. Her explanation sounds like she's trying to divert your attention away from something else. Her explanation doesn't hurt you. The truth might devastate you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean nothing about failing at life indicated perfectionism to me.

My sibling with ADHD is like this. Either it comes easily and they're the best at it and outshine their peers, or they're the worst and it's not even worth trying if they're just going to be mediocre. Sibling also failed out of their first year of college because of the anxiety and the "why even try if I already screwed something up?" factor, so yeah, it can be self sabotaging.

No magic bullet. Sibling eventually went to community college or worked crappy jobs (basically would get sick enough of one to bounce back to the other each semester), got AA degree after a few years, finished at a good state school mid-20s.

OP's daughter has the alcohol issue on top though. That needs to be dealt with. She's self medicating for depression in a very self destructive way.

Yes, your sibling has the textbook “black and white” thinking that many people with ADHD have. Everything is incredibly easy or too hard, a triumph or an abysmal failure, the best or the worst. It’s a lifelong struggle to overcome that way of thinking.

“Black and white thinking” is in fact not in any textbook describing ADHD. It is however part of the textbook description of BPD, as well as the type of dysfunctional thinking that may underlie depression.

It's also a symptom of ptsd, trauma, autism, etc. It is a maladaptive coping mechanism.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean nothing about failing at life indicated perfectionism to me.

My sibling with ADHD is like this. Either it comes easily and they're the best at it and outshine their peers, or they're the worst and it's not even worth trying if they're just going to be mediocre. Sibling also failed out of their first year of college because of the anxiety and the "why even try if I already screwed something up?" factor, so yeah, it can be self sabotaging.

No magic bullet. Sibling eventually went to community college or worked crappy jobs (basically would get sick enough of one to bounce back to the other each semester), got AA degree after a few years, finished at a good state school mid-20s.

OP's daughter has the alcohol issue on top though. That needs to be dealt with. She's self medicating for depression in a very self destructive way.

Yes, your sibling has the textbook “black and white” thinking that many people with ADHD have. Everything is incredibly easy or too hard, a triumph or an abysmal failure, the best or the worst. It’s a lifelong struggle to overcome that way of thinking.

“Black and white thinking” is in fact not in any textbook describing ADHD. It is however part of the textbook description of BPD, as well as the type of dysfunctional thinking that may underlie depression.

Feel free to google ADHD and black and white thinking. While I wasn’t citing the DSM (lol), it is a very well known phenomenon clinicians have observed in individuals with ADHD.

I’m sure you can dig up a blog post saying anything. But black and white thinking is not an ADHD symptom or diagnostic criteria. I’m not sure why you are lol‘ing at the DSM while simultaneously trying to say something you think is intelligent about a ADHD.

Just google it. I didn’t make it up.

I’m not going to “just google it.” That’s the whole problem with diagnosis via pop culture.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean nothing about failing at life indicated perfectionism to me.

My sibling with ADHD is like this. Either it comes easily and they're the best at it and outshine their peers, or they're the worst and it's not even worth trying if they're just going to be mediocre. Sibling also failed out of their first year of college because of the anxiety and the "why even try if I already screwed something up?" factor, so yeah, it can be self sabotaging.

No magic bullet. Sibling eventually went to community college or worked crappy jobs (basically would get sick enough of one to bounce back to the other each semester), got AA degree after a few years, finished at a good state school mid-20s.

OP's daughter has the alcohol issue on top though. That needs to be dealt with. She's self medicating for depression in a very self destructive way.

Yes, your sibling has the textbook “black and white” thinking that many people with ADHD have. Everything is incredibly easy or too hard, a triumph or an abysmal failure, the best or the worst. It’s a lifelong struggle to overcome that way of thinking.

“Black and white thinking” is in fact not in any textbook describing ADHD. It is however part of the textbook description of BPD, as well as the type of dysfunctional thinking that may underlie depression.

Feel free to google ADHD and black and white thinking. While I wasn’t citing the DSM (lol), it is a very well known phenomenon clinicians have observed in individuals with ADHD.

I’m sure you can dig up a blog post saying anything. But black and white thinking is not an ADHD symptom or diagnostic criteria. I’m not sure why you are lol‘ing at the DSM while simultaneously trying to say something you think is intelligent about a ADHD.

Just google it. I didn’t make it up.

OP Here- We don’t want it to get to the point of having her kicked out of the house or stop supporting her financially. But she doesn’t want any help and won’t acknowledge the drinking problem. Naturally she’s super bright which is why she lucked out and got into a better college than we thought she would with her high SAT score. She went to class but didn’t do a lot of the work so I know she was trying but struggling. She told me she physically felt like she couldn’t just sit down and do it. She’d be in class and everyone would be working on an assignment but she’d just always feel the need to push it off and didn’t have energy to do it. She did the easier assignments but still failed cause they only made up a smaller portion of her grade in each class. The main reason she’s says she doesn’t want job is because she is very fearful/anxious of bad things that happen in the world so she’s afraid of experiencing something bad at work like crime, assault, violence, abuse, etc. She needs therapy but won’t attend. She’s always been ambitious and loved learning but never really was fond about having to work. DH and I are on the same page with this and looking for solutions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She is self-medicating her insecurity and shame with alcohol, OP.

Also, perfectionism, anxiety, mental rigidity are all red flags for mild autism. In girls specifically, autism sometimes doesn't come with the social deficits one often sees in boys. At minimum, your child has significant anxiety. She could also be on the spectrum if she exhibits high levels of rigidity.

She may need meds for anxiety or depression, OP. You need to get her to a psychiatrist or do another evaluation at a psychologist's office. You'll have to see whether she functions better on ADHD meds plus anxiety meds, or if she only needs anxiety meds.

But you really need to explain to her the link between her drinking and her feelings of inadequacy. She can be either in a downward spiral, like she is, or in an upward spiral: going to community college, transferring to her local state college, and feeling much better about herself. For that to work, she needs to control the drinking, especially since she will be taking meds that don't really go with alcohol.

You really need to insist. There is no car or phone or money if she cannot be responsible.
And please don't kick her out, for her own health and safety, unless she starts becoming dangerous. Otherwise in the state she's in, she's going to hit rock bottom in a way that might be terminal.

Me again. I mention mild autism because ASD almost always comes with ADHD and anxiety. It's a package deal. A lot of kids with ADHD only have that diagnosis. But kids with autism usually also have comorbidities. The combined diagnosis might explain why she's so stubborn. My ASD/ADHD son could only be diagnosed with a combined diagnosis when we repeated the evaluation while he was medicated for ADHD, because he was so inattentive that the ADHD was masking all other diagnoses.

She doesn’t have autism. She has a boyfriend and “had a great year socially.”

She doesn’t have ADHD. OP relates that her “grades slipped suddenly” in HS.

Something else is going on and these misdiagnoses just show the danger of lumping all kids into two fashionable categories.

To me she sounds basically irresponsible and immature, and possible with a drinking problem. I think therapy to help her accept what she did wrong in school and decide on her next steps is important. But I think it is even more important that OP stop enabling.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean nothing about failing at life indicated perfectionism to me.

My sibling with ADHD is like this. Either it comes easily and they're the best at it and outshine their peers, or they're the worst and it's not even worth trying if they're just going to be mediocre. Sibling also failed out of their first year of college because of the anxiety and the "why even try if I already screwed something up?" factor, so yeah, it can be self sabotaging.

No magic bullet. Sibling eventually went to community college or worked crappy jobs (basically would get sick enough of one to bounce back to the other each semester), got AA degree after a few years, finished at a good state school mid-20s.

OP's daughter has the alcohol issue on top though. That needs to be dealt with. She's self medicating for depression in a very self destructive way.

Yes, your sibling has the textbook “black and white” thinking that many people with ADHD have. Everything is incredibly easy or too hard, a triumph or an abysmal failure, the best or the worst. It’s a lifelong struggle to overcome that way of thinking.

“Black and white thinking” is in fact not in any textbook describing ADHD. It is however part of the textbook description of BPD, as well as the type of dysfunctional thinking that may underlie depression.

Feel free to google ADHD and black and white thinking. While I wasn’t citing the DSM (lol), it is a very well known phenomenon clinicians have observed in individuals with ADHD.

I’m sure you can dig up a blog post saying anything. But black and white thinking is not an ADHD symptom or diagnostic criteria. I’m not sure why you are lol‘ing at the DSM while simultaneously trying to say something you think is intelligent about a ADHD.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What specialists diagnosed or treated her ADHD? Has she been in therapy since she was diagnosed? CBT is part of the standard treatment plan for kids with ADHD. Have you looked into an executive functioning coach? Did you set up any supports at her college with their office of accessibility?

It’s very common for people with untreated ADHD to self medicate with alcohol or drugs. The first step is get her help to stop drinking. Then she needs to remain in therapy and keep trying appropriate medications while she lives at home with you and learns how to function as an adult. Then you need to find a college program with supports for students with ADHD. She’s very capable, but she will need more help and support than other college students.

ADHD actually does not make you suddenly go from As to failing or refuse to work or come home drunk every night. Something else is going on.

Mismanaged ADHD can absolutely cause a kid to flunk their first year of college and then the shame and low self esteem can cause a kid to spiral and drink heavily. She started having academic issues 3 years ago and the solution was for mom and dad to ride her to complete her work. They didn’t go off to college with her though. What was the plan to help her succeed?

ADHD is supposed to be present in early childhood - not sudden onset in 10th grade. I get that this is the trend to make this kind of diagnosis but the danger is that is covers up what may actually be the issue - anxiety, depression, personality disorder, some kind of trauma. The idea that ADHD is at the root of all other kinds of challenges is a just-so story, not helpful evaluation. And the only reason we think of it that way is because there is a medication for ADHD (which may make things worse if it is the incorrect medication).

A lot of people with ADHD also suffer from anxiety and/or depression. It's not one or the other. The ADHD challenges and internalized shame can feed those mental health struggles.

Also, doctors won't necessarily evaluate someone for ADHD in early childhood if they're not struggling enough in school. I'm the PP whose sibling had a similar story to OP's DD - I see SO many parallels between my sibling and oldest kid that are common symptoms of ADHD, and his teachers in early elementary said he was struggling with attention, but we couldn't get him an evaluation because he was doing well in school. So I'm just trying to teach coping mechanisms at home, and literally just keeping notes, because I think when the demands increase in middle or high school, it may become a problem.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What specialists diagnosed or treated her ADHD? Has she been in therapy since she was diagnosed? CBT is part of the standard treatment plan for kids with ADHD. Have you looked into an executive functioning coach? Did you set up any supports at her college with their office of accessibility?

It’s very common for people with untreated ADHD to self medicate with alcohol or drugs. The first step is get her help to stop drinking. Then she needs to remain in therapy and keep trying appropriate medications while she lives at home with you and learns how to function as an adult. Then you need to find a college program with supports for students with ADHD. She’s very capable, but she will need more help and support than other college students.

ADHD actually does not make you suddenly go from As to failing or refuse to work or come home drunk every night. Something else is going on.

Mismanaged ADHD can absolutely cause a kid to flunk their first year of college and then the shame and low self esteem can cause a kid to spiral and drink heavily. She started having academic issues 3 years ago and the solution was for mom and dad to ride her to complete her work. They didn’t go off to college with her though. What was the plan to help her succeed?

ADHD is supposed to be present in early childhood - not sudden onset in 10th grade. I get that this is the trend to make this kind of diagnosis but the danger is that is covers up what may actually be the issue - anxiety, depression, personality disorder, some kind of trauma. The idea that ADHD is at the root of all other kinds of challenges is a just-so story, not helpful evaluation. And the only reason we think of it that way is because there is a medication for ADHD (which may make things worse if it is the incorrect medication).

If not severe, girls may be better at masking.

Also, mild ADHD can not be evident as most classes are easy these days until 10th or so when the harder classes begin.

Does she say why she no longer wants to work? I do think that is the lowest hanging fruit right now….you state that after hs she either has to get a job or go to school. No options. Give her 6 weeks? I think hiring is slow but she should be able to get a retail job. But this can be a battle if they won’t apply!

Second, I would let her know that it is not unusual for students ( I don’t have #s but I worked at a community college for a few years in advising and saw this) drop out, fail out, or miss home and leave after freshman year. She absolutely can start again and pursue an associates. Happens a lot. After that, she can transfer to a 4 yr if that is what she wants.

If not, she can consider fire/ rescue, police, military, culinary, beauty, real estate schools/ etc programs.

I would do what others advise and not pay for her phone/ only flip phone, not let her borrow the car, and she cannot come home intoxicated. This one is hard as I am sure it is hard to enforce and then what do you do short of rehab which is $$$.

I’d also say she has to cook dinner 2x a week, or cut grass…just anything she can do to help around the house. Also, she has to be up and downstairs by 10 am everyday. Even if lying on the couch.

You probably have thought of these things but wanted to offer something.

A friend’s dc going through this ( though no drinking just failure to go to school or work). It has gone on for 3 years - just won’t even consider work. Boggles the mind. However, are now asking to start at community college and has signed up!

On my end, we had one semester of this with a dc caused by depression. Ours did some of what I suggested above- looked for a job, was up by 9 am and downstairs, occasionally cooked. Fortunately, they were open to talk therapy and meds (did not drink but did soothe with food and hid it so gained a bit of weight). They will graduate this year!

Really wishing you only the very best. Xo

It doesn’t sound like she’s gotten enough professional support. For example, have you ever hired an executive function coach for her?

I think she might need, at a minimum, and intensive outpatient program that she would go to for several hours a day where her drinking and other issues could be addressed.

I would not pay for anything other than her basic food needs and health insurance. Meaning, she can eat the food that’s in the refrigerator, but hell no don’t pay for her Uber eats or anything like that I would not pay for her phone. Do not let her drive your car. I will keep her on the car insurance just in case she sneaks a drive, however. But basically, you need to cover very few of her expenses. Basically cover anything that could potentially lead to liability for you guys like health insurance or car insurance. Because I’m sure if she gets cancer, you’re not gonna let her just die. It probably does not cost her anything to keep her on the health insurance until age 26.

But do not pay for her toiletries, her clothing, car, gas, phone, social activities, etc.

She might be best off, going to community college and taking one or two classes and getting her degree slowly.

OP, how naturally intelligent would you say she is? How good/not good were her test scores?

Anonymous wrote:She is self-medicating her insecurity and shame with alcohol, OP.

Also, perfectionism, anxiety, mental rigidity are all red flags for mild autism. In girls specifically, autism sometimes doesn't come with the social deficits one often sees in boys. At minimum, your child has significant anxiety. She could also be on the spectrum if she exhibits high levels of rigidity.

She may need meds for anxiety or depression, OP. You need to get her to a psychiatrist or do another evaluation at a psychologist's office. You'll have to see whether she functions better on ADHD meds plus anxiety meds, or if she only needs anxiety meds.

But you really need to explain to her the link between her drinking and her feelings of inadequacy. She can be either in a downward spiral, like she is, or in an upward spiral: going to community college, transferring to her local state college, and feeling much better about herself. For that to work, she needs to control the drinking, especially since she will be taking meds that don't really go with alcohol.

You really need to insist. There is no car or phone or money if she cannot be responsible.
And please don't kick her out, for her own health and safety, unless she starts becoming dangerous. Otherwise in the state she's in, she's going to hit rock bottom in a way that might be terminal.

Me again. I mention mild autism because ASD almost always comes with ADHD and anxiety. It's a package deal. A lot of kids with ADHD only have that diagnosis. But kids with autism usually also have comorbidities. The combined diagnosis might explain why she's so stubborn. My ASD/ADHD son could only be diagnosed with a combined diagnosis when we repeated the evaluation while he was medicated for ADHD, because he was so inattentive that the ADHD was masking all other diagnoses.

She is self-medicating her insecurity and shame with alcohol, OP.

Also, perfectionism, anxiety, mental rigidity are all red flags for mild autism. In girls specifically, autism sometimes doesn't come with the social deficits one often sees in boys. At minimum, your child has significant anxiety. She could also be on the spectrum if she exhibits high levels of rigidity.

She may need meds for anxiety or depression, OP. You need to get her to a psychiatrist or do another evaluation at a psychologist's office. You'll have to see whether she functions better on ADHD meds plus anxiety meds, or if she only needs anxiety meds.

But you really need to explain to her the link between her drinking and her feelings of inadequacy. She can be either in a downward spiral, like she is, or in an upward spiral: going to community college, transferring to her local state college, and feeling much better about herself. For that to work, she needs to control the drinking, especially since she will be taking meds that don't really go with alcohol.

You really need to insist. There is no car or phone or money if she cannot be responsible.
And please don't kick her out, for her own health and safety, unless she starts becoming dangerous. Otherwise in the state she's in, she's going to hit rock bottom in a way that might be terminal.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean nothing about failing at life indicated perfectionism to me.

My sibling with ADHD is like this. Either it comes easily and they're the best at it and outshine their peers, or they're the worst and it's not even worth trying if they're just going to be mediocre. Sibling also failed out of their first year of college because of the anxiety and the "why even try if I already screwed something up?" factor, so yeah, it can be self sabotaging.

No magic bullet. Sibling eventually went to community college or worked crappy jobs (basically would get sick enough of one to bounce back to the other each semester), got AA degree after a few years, finished at a good state school mid-20s.

OP's daughter has the alcohol issue on top though. That needs to be dealt with. She's self medicating for depression in a very self destructive way.

Yes, your sibling has the textbook “black and white” thinking that many people with ADHD have. Everything is incredibly easy or too hard, a triumph or an abysmal failure, the best or the worst. It’s a lifelong struggle to overcome that way of thinking.

“Black and white thinking” is in fact not in any textbook describing ADHD. It is however part of the textbook description of BPD, as well as the type of dysfunctional thinking that may underlie depression.

Feel free to google ADHD and black and white thinking. While I wasn’t citing the DSM (lol), it is a very well known phenomenon clinicians have observed in individuals with ADHD.