Kate's always been bad, but the weird thing is how many people have used the fact that she was a crap mom to pretend that Jon was a good dad. The whole "he fought for his kids" thing is heavy historical revisionism - first he left the state to try to be famous and carefree, then when he couldn't make that happen he intentionally impoverished himself (he was a software engineer or something and refused to get a job) and moved to the woods and never saw his kids.

When the Collin thing happened he stepped up and that's good, but that was a solid decade after the divorce.

Both of their parents sucked; those kids never stood a chance.

I’m with you OP. I think she was in a terrible position and her husband acted like a child.
I was raising multiples during the same time period (although half of what she had), and I don’t think most people have any idea of how hard it was and what a toll it takes on your body physically as well as emotionally. She had six premature babies and some of their issues may stem from prematurity and developmental delays. She seemed to handle the bulk of child rearing and making the income. She also probably got a really bad edit because it is reality TV after all. She did lots of things I disagree with but some of you saying she was controlling have never taken toddler multiples out in public and it shows.

Most of us would consider them to be really young parents. I think she was 24 when she had twins and 28 when she had 8 kids!! Not saying any no don’t is right but when you think about the highly educated moms who are like “I read 37 books and here is my parenting philosophy” and who are comfortable with therapy etc, the Gosselins probably are no or in that category. I used to watch it when my kids were toddlers and it was nice to see somebody on tv whose house was messy and their kids were loud, but for the life of me I can’t figure out why they were always dragging them all those places. You don’t need to take 8 kids furniture shopping, to Disney, to Hawaii. Everybody probably would have been happier hanging in the backyard without all the elaborate parties etc. I wonder what she regrets in retrospect.

Anonymous wrote:She was bad, yes, but I think almost anyone would crack in some way with that many kids.

She didn't have to have that many kids. Her doctor advised her to reduce.

I'm not trying to be blasé about how horrible it is to have to make that decision. But I also don't think her choices give her a free pass to treat her kids and husband terribly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She was in survival mode with a dead weight husband and too many kids. But she never should have showed that to the general public.

Was he dead weight. He stepped up and fought for and has two kids.

He wasn’t a deadweight. He had. I power in that family and was always been yelled at and told everything he did was wrong. He pulled back and walked on eggshells as many abuse victims do. He became very passive as a way of adapting to the dynamic.

And yet as soon as he was divorced he put on his ugly Ed Hardy shirts and sparkly jeans and wanted to be a DJ on college campuses. Dad of the year.

Are you saying anyone with a clothing style you don’t like is a bad parent? So you didn’t like his outfits as they weren’t your style. Seems he maybe has never been allowed to choose his own clothes or have his own style and that is what he gravitated too initially. He DJ’d all over the place. I don’t know what his educational background and professional experiences were but maybe that was a way to make money. Probably not really easy to get a job at that point.

Real husband and father material right there. Do you not know a midlife crisis when you see one?

I don’t think it away a midlife crisis. I think it was trying to figure out who you are and what to do with the freedom after over a decade of being micromanaged, controlled, abused, and belittled.

You don’t get to do that as a parent of 8.

You don’t get to choose your own clothes or make choices about work?

A lot of functional adults with kids would say no.

She was SO shrill. She played favorites with her kids. She acted like she was the perfect parent and Jon was useless and couldn't make any decisions without her input.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. This is interesting to me, to see many responses on the spooning? I don’t think I could name one friend or relative who was not spanked or had a parent use something like a sandal or spoon. We even had other people’s grandparents disciplining us as kids.

How old are you? My oldest is in his 40s and none of the other parents I knew were spanking their kids at that time. And using an object to hit your kids with was definitely thought of as outrageous.

(DP). Im 44. I was spanked, my brothers got the belt when they were really bad.

I don’t spank my kids but I know two other moms who used a wooden spoon / spatula on their kids, 5-10 years ago. They freely talked about it, the one mom who used the spatula called it a “spatchie pop” lol. This was in the country, I think it’s still prevalent in rural areas.

Kate’s behavior didn’t seem that bad to me. I was raised by less than stellar parents though…

Wow, I’m surprised at that. To be fair, I lived in more city/suburban type areas, typically in neighborhoods with a high proportion of college educated parents. Spanking kids was thought of as the thin edge of the wedge leading to abuse. It certainly wasn’t thought of as a normal disciplinary technique.

Yes. Yes, she was.

Next question.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. This is interesting to me, to see many responses on the spooning? I don’t think I could name one friend or relative who was not spanked or had a parent use something like a sandal or spoon. We even had other people’s grandparents disciplining us as kids.

How old are you? My oldest is in his 40s and none of the other parents I knew were spanking their kids at that time. And using an object to hit your kids with was definitely thought of as outrageous.

(DP). Im 44. I was spanked, my brothers got the belt when they were really bad.

I don’t spank my kids but I know two other moms who used a wooden spoon / spatula on their kids, 5-10 years ago. They freely talked about it, the one mom who used the spatula called it a “spatchie pop” lol. This was in the country, I think it’s still prevalent in rural areas.

Kate’s behavior didn’t seem that bad to me. I was raised by less than stellar parents though…

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She was in survival mode with a dead weight husband and too many kids. But she never should have showed that to the general public.

Was he dead weight. He stepped up and fought for and has two kids.

He wasn’t a deadweight. He had. I power in that family and was always been yelled at and told everything he did was wrong. He pulled back and walked on eggshells as many abuse victims do. He became very passive as a way of adapting to the dynamic.

And yet as soon as he was divorced he put on his ugly Ed Hardy shirts and sparkly jeans and wanted to be a DJ on college campuses. Dad of the year.

Are you saying anyone with a clothing style you don’t like is a bad parent? So you didn’t like his outfits as they weren’t your style. Seems he maybe has never been allowed to choose his own clothes or have his own style and that is what he gravitated too initially. He DJ’d all over the place. I don’t know what his educational background and professional experiences were but maybe that was a way to make money. Probably not really easy to get a job at that point.

Real husband and father material right there. Do you not know a midlife crisis when you see one?

I don’t think it away a midlife crisis. I think it was trying to figure out who you are and what to do with the freedom after over a decade of being micromanaged, controlled, abused, and belittled.

You don’t get to do that as a parent of 8.

You do when you don’t have custody.

Anonymous wrote:YES. No doubt having 8 kids brought out the worst in her and I'm sure she was stressed to the max. She should not have been allowed to continue the pregnancy with that many babies. She belittled Jon, micromanaged everyone, was extremely controlling and inflexible, dismissive of everyone's feelings and emotions. Her kids endured so many HARSH punishments for really minor offenses. I don't know exactly what happened to Collin but it seems that her decision to institutionalize him was more about HER needs and inability to cope. That fact that they are still estranged today says a lot.

Her fertility treatment was not well managed if she was able to conceive a set of sextuplets (unless as pp suggests, she had unprotected sex against medical advice). REs shouldn’t be producing sets of high order multiples that aren’t identical. Still, what do you mean she shouldn’t have been “allowed” to continue the pregnancy? Are you suggesting selective reduction (abortion) should be performed against a woman’s will? As someone who is pro choice, I’m horrified by that suggestion.

She was bad, yes, but I think almost anyone would crack in some way with that many kids.

Anonymous wrote:Op here. This is interesting to me, to see many responses on the spooning? I don’t think I could name one friend or relative who was not spanked or had a parent use something like a sandal or spoon. We even had other people’s grandparents disciplining us as kids.

How old are you? My oldest is in his 40s and none of the other parents I knew were spanking their kids at that time. And using an object to hit your kids with was definitely thought of as outrageous.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She was in survival mode with a dead weight husband and too many kids. But she never should have showed that to the general public.

Was he dead weight. He stepped up and fought for and has two kids.

He wasn’t a deadweight. He had. I power in that family and was always been yelled at and told everything he did was wrong. He pulled back and walked on eggshells as many abuse victims do. He became very passive as a way of adapting to the dynamic.

And yet as soon as he was divorced he put on his ugly Ed Hardy shirts and sparkly jeans and wanted to be a DJ on college campuses. Dad of the year.

Are you saying anyone with a clothing style you don’t like is a bad parent? So you didn’t like his outfits as they weren’t your style. Seems he maybe has never been allowed to choose his own clothes or have his own style and that is what he gravitated too initially. He DJ’d all over the place. I don’t know what his educational background and professional experiences were but maybe that was a way to make money. Probably not really easy to get a job at that point.

Real husband and father material right there. Do you not know a midlife crisis when you see one?

I don’t think it away a midlife crisis. I think it was trying to figure out who you are and what to do with the freedom after over a decade of being micromanaged, controlled, abused, and belittled.

You don’t get to do that as a parent of 8.

You don’t get to choose your own clothes or make choices about work?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She was in survival mode with a dead weight husband and too many kids. But she never should have showed that to the general public.

Was he dead weight. He stepped up and fought for and has two kids.

He wasn’t a deadweight. He had. I power in that family and was always been yelled at and told everything he did was wrong. He pulled back and walked on eggshells as many abuse victims do. He became very passive as a way of adapting to the dynamic.

And yet as soon as he was divorced he put on his ugly Ed Hardy shirts and sparkly jeans and wanted to be a DJ on college campuses. Dad of the year.

Kate had a horrifyingly awful hair style but that isn’t what made her a bad parent. She also kept her kids on tv even after the divorce and some of the kids saying they didn’t want to be but she may not have known how else to make money either.

The majority of Jon’s kids as adults still don’t talk to him. They must know something we don’t. Kate got the brunt of the hate but Jon is no saint.

They are young adults (20, I think) who were not allowed to talk to him and likely still would have consequences if they did. There has been a lot of parental alienation as well. They are in a difficult situation. Will see what happens when they get older and have their own families. Their view of their parents will change when they are independent adults and when they have their own families.