Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the problem is complex and centers mainly around the fact that a system that supported a working spouse/stay-at-home spouse model has NOT adapted to support two working spouses. For all the "advances" women have gained over the last several decades there is nearly no associated update to the infrastructure to support us.

This is by design. The powers that be want a smaller population and working mothers plus zero support for them plus celebration of alternative lifestyles are how they are getting it.

This is not true. All of the "powers that be" in the US want you having children. It's how our economy and social security will stay afloat. They're just cheap and don't want to pay for them.

The main argument for immigration is because Americans aren't having enough children. Which is an awful argument in my mind. Why do we need more poor people having children they can't afford when we could support middle class people here? i certainly would have had more children and earlier if there were more supports.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just saw a social media fb post on a local moms page from a lamenting mom earnestly asking the question of how in the world moms are supposed to work 9-5, but still get kids to school by 8AM and picked up at 3PM and have time to make dinner and energy for homework help and so on and so on.

The clear answer is, of course, that they aren’t supposed to do this. In fact, most men were perfectly happy with the arrangement of division of labor where he performed the “outside” labor that secured earned income for the family and she performed the domestic labor that allowed the home and children to be cared for without outsourcing those duties and payments to someone else.
No one asked women to “do it all”—and women were offended by this!
And yet, somehow about 40 years ago some so-called feminists convinced women that they were being oppressed and needed the “freedom” to go spend their days working outside the home as well.
Yay for feminism!

The Ironic Part is when both couples work they often earn less as both of them can't fully commit to job. Plus there is child care, double commuting costs, work clothes, work lunches, more outsourcing of work at home like a maid. A dual couple often earns less. And the children suffer.

My wife is a rare SAHM once we decided to go that route. I was only making 60K and she was only making 60k. We decided to go all in on me, she would 100 percent support my career, I could work as late as needed, travel on a moments notice, join boards, travel for work, network after work. In other words 100 percent focused on work. Her Mom worked and she was bitter coming home to a house where she and sister was expected in HS to take care of their brother 10 years younger and no one every at a game or event or available to car pool.

Anyhow my salary went from 60k to 360K in 10 years. So after 10 years home we were making enough that it confused my dual income relatives our age. It does not matter man or women, the person with most career potential should focus on that. My own sister was not till her dumb husband got laid off third time after she just had third kid and he decided to be a stay at home Dad for next 15 years did her career rocketship up. She was done having kids and no longer had to do the SAHM and juggle work. They made a lot more money as soon as they picked one person to make a run at it. He was holding her back.

That sounds like a reach. What field are you in?

Anonymous wrote:I think the problem is complex and centers mainly around the fact that a system that supported a working spouse/stay-at-home spouse model has NOT adapted to support two working spouses. For all the "advances" women have gained over the last several decades there is nearly no associated update to the infrastructure to support us.

This is by design. The powers that be want a smaller population and working mothers plus zero support for them plus celebration of alternative lifestyles are how they are getting it.

I think the problem is complex and centers mainly around the fact that a system that supported a working spouse/stay-at-home spouse model has NOT adapted to support two working spouses. For all the "advances" women have gained over the last several decades there is nearly no associated update to the infrastructure to support us.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On I'm Chicago and I saw the exact same post. It was on Facebook. I am inundated in Facebook with stuff about "overwhelmed moms" and it feels synthetic to me. Also lots of stuff about lazy uninvolved husbands which mine is certainly not.
Somebody out there wants you resentful.
I work half time hours and I am happy and not overwhelmed at all. Of course I don't make DCUM money.

Agreed. All I see all around me are wonderful dads who are very, very involved. Why is there a constant narrative about men not doing enough? Go to any playground and it's full of men hanging out with their kids. Men are at all the school events at equal numbers to the moms present.

Honestly I'm glad I'm not a man because of all the constant hate that dads seem to get, despite all the chores they do, plus bringing home 50%+ of the income. My dh absolutely pulls his own weight. Despite all this, boomer women thank him and praise him for babysitting his own kids when he's at the grocery store with them (I haven't stepped into a grocery store in years, that's dh's chore). A relative couldn't get over how dh changed diapers (what?!!?). Millennial men have shown up for their wives and kids.

Eh, I'm in the middle on this. My DH absolutely does a ton and I'm so grateful to him for it. And also I do 2-3x more than he does. I'm so glad DH is more modern and not like my dad (or his dad) who did almost nothing even though both our moms worked. But that doesn't mean things are equal in our household at all. I still feel the "do it all" expectation even with a spouse who is an active, involved father.

So much of it is about culture and how men are socialized though. My DH is self aware for the most part but there are still entire swaths of parenting and household work that he is either not aware of at all or just silently leaves for me because he either doesn't know how or simply does not want to do them. He likes to pick his stuff, he wants to clean the kitchen and do drop off/pick up and take kids to the playground and that is it. But he never wants to vacuum or teach kids how to clean up after themselves or deal with all the school paperwork and logistics or figure out summer camp or hire a sitter or talk to a kid about why they got so mad at dinner or notice a kid has shot up over the summer and needs all new pants and figure out where to buy them and make sure the kid likes them and that they are uniform compliant. So he does the stuff he likes to do and I do everything else. It's not equal and it does lead to resentment. We will talk about it and he'll apologize and he'll try harder but we're both working under decades of being socialized a certain way. We don't get to just allocate simply and equally, we have to unpack the reasons why he's resistant to taking on certain stuff and try to overcome that and that's work too.

My DH has shown up for me and our kids but also it's still unequal because society hasn't really shown up for families in general. Everything he does around the house or with the kids is still seen as "extra" and kind of him, and everything I do is seen as expected and also insufficient, even though I also work! DH isn't the problem, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On I'm Chicago and I saw the exact same post. It was on Facebook. I am inundated in Facebook with stuff about "overwhelmed moms" and it feels synthetic to me. Also lots of stuff about lazy uninvolved husbands which mine is certainly not.
Somebody out there wants you resentful.
I work half time hours and I am happy and not overwhelmed at all. Of course I don't make DCUM money.

Agreed. All I see all around me are wonderful dads who are very, very involved. Why is there a constant narrative about men not doing enough? Go to any playground and it's full of men hanging out with their kids. Men are at all the school events at equal numbers to the moms present.

Honestly I'm glad I'm not a man because of all the constant hate that dads seem to get, despite all the chores they do, plus bringing home 50%+ of the income. My dh absolutely pulls his own weight. Despite all this, boomer women thank him and praise him for babysitting his own kids when he's at the grocery store with them (I haven't stepped into a grocery store in years, that's dh's chore). A relative couldn't get over how dh changed diapers (what?!!?). Millennial men have shown up for their wives and kids.

I totally agree with you. Millennial dads are bringing it. I want to put in a plug for GenX men as well. My husband and the men I know well have been present for their kids doing all sorts of chores boomer + men would never have imagined. GenX men may or may not have had the benefit of paternity leave (depends on their age and who they worked for), but, they work fulltime, usually are the main or an equal breadwinner and also do lots of regular chores. My husband has consistenly done more and more as our kids have gotten older, and he never complains. The women I know my age who complain that there husbands do nothing are total control freaks and have trained their husbands out of helping. Thanks to all the dads out there who are trying!

Anonymous wrote:On I'm Chicago and I saw the exact same post. It was on Facebook. I am inundated in Facebook with stuff about "overwhelmed moms" and it feels synthetic to me. Also lots of stuff about lazy uninvolved husbands which mine is certainly not.
Somebody out there wants you resentful.
I work half time hours and I am happy and not overwhelmed at all. Of course I don't make DCUM money.

I am you but I live in DC, so I'm fairly happy and not overwhelmed but I feel like we never have enough money. I do think part-time work and flexible hours is the key, which for me was achievable because I was fairly successful in a white collar job before having a kid. It wasn't too hard to find a situation where I could offer good value on a part time basis and I had the industry connections and reputation to create an arrangement like that. But working part time means I make a third or even a quarter of what I would make full time, because I cannot be in a management position which I otherwise would be. So I get paid as an SME. DC is so expensive. I'm happy with my choices but the financial piece means I'm always contemplating going back full time, and then I look into the logistics of it and think "screw this." And then six months later I do it again.

So maybe halftime hours is the solution but not in a high COL area like DC. My spouse's job is here for the time being so moving isn't an option yet. I often fantasize about moving to a place like Chicago or Denver or Nashville or Minneapolis where our money would go a little further, and wonder if that would make this all easier.

I can almost handle the working mom and dad both with big-ish jobs thing (though I dream about SAH), but also handling the aging/ailing parent thing is crushing me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to work and be a mom. My brains will melt at home w/t a job. Yes, school hours are challenging but manageable — one parent drops off, the other picks up. Let people vent and complain! Once they go on vacation that they can afford due to dual income, and provide kids with extra curriculars that they can afford in this area due to dual income, they will feel better and choose work over staying at home again and again.

No, not everyone would make the same choices you make. The point is to have the choice and not be told you have to stay at home or you have to work. Not by a man and not by another woman.

DCUM is definitely going backward if we are fighting the mommy wars again.

The anti-feminists would very much love it if women didn’t have a choice. When they criticize “feminism” what do you think that means, exactly? The legal protections women won to give them choice: job protections so they couldn’t be fired for being a woman or being pregnant; equal educational and sports opportunities; the ability have a credit card and take out a mortgage; and probably most importantly the ability to control their reproduction (birth control is still legal and not going anywhere).

And some “feminists” want to shame some women who choose not to work outside the home rather than recognizing that the feminist movement was about being able to make choices, not which choice to make. Real feminists support that ability to choose and the mechanisms that make that possible. They don’t call people trad wives and tell them how to live.

zero feminists want to take away a woman’s legal right to stay home with her child if she chooses that. But plenty of anti-feminists want to take away women’s legal rights, or manipulate the system to force women to stay home.

Anonymous wrote:I still can’t get over how the OP has apparently never considered that most children have another parent called a father who can also do school pickups.

When you marry a loser it's apparently everyone's fault except your own. "Why is society oppressing me like this?!"

Anonymous wrote:On I'm Chicago and I saw the exact same post. It was on Facebook. I am inundated in Facebook with stuff about "overwhelmed moms" and it feels synthetic to me. Also lots of stuff about lazy uninvolved husbands which mine is certainly not.
Somebody out there wants you resentful.
I work half time hours and I am happy and not overwhelmed at all. Of course I don't make DCUM money.

Agreed. All I see all around me are wonderful dads who are very, very involved. Why is there a constant narrative about men not doing enough? Go to any playground and it's full of men hanging out with their kids. Men are at all the school events at equal numbers to the moms present.

Honestly I'm glad I'm not a man because of all the constant hate that dads seem to get, despite all the chores they do, plus bringing home 50%+ of the income. My dh absolutely pulls his own weight. Despite all this, boomer women thank him and praise him for babysitting his own kids when he's at the grocery store with them (I haven't stepped into a grocery store in years, that's dh's chore). A relative couldn't get over how dh changed diapers (what?!!?). Millennial men have shown up for their wives and kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9-5 is pretty ridiculous hours. Try working 7-3:30 or 8-4 instead and then it matches school hours better. I often leave at 5:30am, dh takes the kids to school and then I'm home by 3pm. It frees up the whole afternoon for me to be with kids.

My kids do after school activities and those activities (tae kwon do, ballet, gymnastics, kumon) all pick up from school and take them directly there. Technically they can all stay there until 6:30pm and occasionally I need it if I'm in long meetings downtown or something.

And yes, we all have choices. I wanted to have 3 kids, 5 bedroom house, nice vacations, college paid for. It's expensive. I know plenty of SAHMs who live in tiny apartments with 2 bedrooms and still live happy lives. America is great in that we do have choices. Become a trad wife if that makes you happy. Or marry a man who pulls his 50% (like I did). We all chose our majors, careers, spouses, houses. Change your choices if they aren't working for you.

Every single mom on my block of 2-4 million homes does not work or has a side job. Look my neighbor is a IVY league Doctor, sounds good. But she has four kids, range rover, mercedes convertible, beach house. She quit at 45 after birth of fourth child. She only made like 400k as a doctor. Her husband makes like 2-4 million as a CEO. What does she have to prove? She does on line medical stuff for a HMO just enough partime to keep license. The Dads on my block are all workholics who own business, judges, surgeons, CEOs, EVPs in IT alpha type males.

Five of my neighbors are SAHMs with no kids at home. Their kids are graduated and out of house. They are not going to work full time for 100k and give back half in taxes due to tax bracket. Yet somehow people think there are oppressed. 1/2 of these childless SAHMs have maids. I have no clue why. But they have so much money so they kept them after kids grown and they no longer work.

Umm no one thinks rich SAHMs are oppressed. NO ONE.

But that life isn't what I wanted for myself. I wanted a husband who was home for dinner every night, who could coach soccer, but also made enough for us to enjoy an UMC life. I absolutely would divorce a workaholic CEO. A maid doesn't make up for a missing husband.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:9-5 is pretty ridiculous hours. Try working 7-3:30 or 8-4 instead and then it matches school hours better. I often leave at 5:30am, dh takes the kids to school and then I'm home by 3pm. It frees up the whole afternoon for me to be with kids.

My kids do after school activities and those activities (tae kwon do, ballet, gymnastics, kumon) all pick up from school and take them directly there. Technically they can all stay there until 6:30pm and occasionally I need it if I'm in long meetings downtown or something.

And yes, we all have choices. I wanted to have 3 kids, 5 bedroom house, nice vacations, college paid for. It's expensive. I know plenty of SAHMs who live in tiny apartments with 2 bedrooms and still live happy lives. America is great in that we do have choices. Become a trad wife if that makes you happy. Or marry a man who pulls his 50% (like I did). We all chose our majors, careers, spouses, houses. Change your choices if they aren't working for you.

Every single mom on my block of 2-4 million homes does not work or has a side job. Look my neighbor is a IVY league Doctor, sounds good. But she has four kids, range rover, mercedes convertible, beach house. She quit at 45 after birth of fourth child. She only made like 400k as a doctor. Her husband makes like 2-4 million as a CEO. What does she have to prove? She does on line medical stuff for a HMO just enough partime to keep license. The Dads on my block are all workholics who own business, judges, surgeons, CEOs, EVPs in IT alpha type males.

Five of my neighbors are SAHMs with no kids at home. Their kids are graduated and out of house. They are not going to work full time for 100k and give back half in taxes due to tax bracket. Yet somehow people think there are oppressed. 1/2 of these childless SAHMs have maids. I have no clue why. But they have so much money so they kept them after kids grown and they no longer work.

Really, you have no clue why? Probably 99% of all people don't like to do house chores, so if you have $$$s you outsource it.

I think it's safe to say that these women aren't "homemakers". They likely had full-time nannies while the kids were young..possibly into middle school to also have them drive them to activities...as well as all sorts of other paid help.

Anonymous wrote:9-5 is pretty ridiculous hours. Try working 7-3:30 or 8-4 instead and then it matches school hours better. I often leave at 5:30am, dh takes the kids to school and then I'm home by 3pm. It frees up the whole afternoon for me to be with kids.

My kids do after school activities and those activities (tae kwon do, ballet, gymnastics, kumon) all pick up from school and take them directly there. Technically they can all stay there until 6:30pm and occasionally I need it if I'm in long meetings downtown or something.

And yes, we all have choices. I wanted to have 3 kids, 5 bedroom house, nice vacations, college paid for. It's expensive. I know plenty of SAHMs who live in tiny apartments with 2 bedrooms and still live happy lives. America is great in that we do have choices. Become a trad wife if that makes you happy. Or marry a man who pulls his 50% (like I did). We all chose our majors, careers, spouses, houses. Change your choices if they aren't working for you.

Every single mom on my block of 2-4 million homes does not work or has a side job. Look my neighbor is a IVY league Doctor, sounds good. But she has four kids, range rover, mercedes convertible, beach house. She quit at 45 after birth of fourth child. She only made like 400k as a doctor. Her husband makes like 2-4 million as a CEO. What does she have to prove? She does on line medical stuff for a HMO just enough partime to keep license. The Dads on my block are all workholics who own business, judges, surgeons, CEOs, EVPs in IT alpha type males.

Five of my neighbors are SAHMs with no kids at home. Their kids are graduated and out of house. They are not going to work full time for 100k and give back half in taxes due to tax bracket. Yet somehow people think there are oppressed. 1/2 of these childless SAHMs have maids. I have no clue why. But they have so much money so they kept them after kids grown and they no longer work.

Anonymous wrote:Just saw a social media fb post on a local moms page from a lamenting mom earnestly asking the question of how in the world moms are supposed to work 9-5, but still get kids to school by 8AM and picked up at 3PM and have time to make dinner and energy for homework help and so on and so on.

The clear answer is, of course, that they aren’t supposed to do this. In fact, most men were perfectly happy with the arrangement of division of labor where he performed the “outside” labor that secured earned income for the family and she performed the domestic labor that allowed the home and children to be cared for without outsourcing those duties and payments to someone else.
No one asked women to “do it all”—and women were offended by this!
And yet, somehow about 40 years ago some so-called feminists convinced women that they were being oppressed and needed the “freedom” to go spend their days working outside the home as well.
Yay for feminism!

The Ironic Part is when both couples work they often earn less as both of them can't fully commit to job. Plus there is child care, double commuting costs, work clothes, work lunches, more outsourcing of work at home like a maid. A dual couple often earns less. And the children suffer.

My wife is a rare SAHM once we decided to go that route. I was only making 60K and she was only making 60k. We decided to go all in on me, she would 100 percent support my career, I could work as late as needed, travel on a moments notice, join boards, travel for work, network after work. In other words 100 percent focused on work. Her Mom worked and she was bitter coming home to a house where she and sister was expected in HS to take care of their brother 10 years younger and no one every at a game or event or available to car pool.

Anyhow my salary went from 60k to 360K in 10 years. So after 10 years home we were making enough that it confused my dual income relatives our age. It does not matter man or women, the person with most career potential should focus on that. My own sister was not till her dumb husband got laid off third time after she just had third kid and he decided to be a stay at home Dad for next 15 years did her career rocketship up. She was done having kids and no longer had to do the SAHM and juggle work. They made a lot more money as soon as they picked one person to make a run at it. He was holding her back.