Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed.

Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East.

You're avoiding the second point I'm making. If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that? Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place? That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.

DP

Massive, seismic, actual democratic reform - that’s what I’m hoping for.

I agree with my sock puppet (🙄) to the point that Israel should never have been established (including for the reason that the more noble act would have been to ensure that Jewish people were able to live safely anywhere), but that horse is outta the barn and I think the only realistic goal now is to force the massive structural reform approach.

What do you mean by democratic reform. Are you talking about the one state solution? The mythical democratic, secular, one state solution? I'd have better luck winning the lottery. The two sides can't even trust each other enough to agree on a two state solution. How is this mythical one state solution supposed to work?

You can live beside someone you hate. India and Pakistan are examples of this. Turkey and Greece are examples of this. Push them together though and it inevitably leads to civil war. It's like the difference between living with a neighbor and a roommate. You can tolerate a bad neighbor sometimes. Almost nobody tolerates a bad roommate.

People seem to forget these two sides hate and/or fear each other. There isn't even a leader on either side that wants this. But sure, keep arguing for the destruction of Israel. Why are you even using those words? Just use the words "democratic reform." If you ever want this to work you need the Israelis to be on board, and antagonizing them with the wrong language doesn't seem like a winning tactic.

Ah, if only filibustering was an option! Status quo is off the table.

Status quo is likely what will happen. Who knows what will happen with Gaza, but the West Bank will still be there. There’s your status quo.

The two sides aren’t any closer to a two state solution, and a Palestinian one state solution is a pipe dream. Maybe there is an outside shot at a three state solution, but I don’t see it.

We’ll be back with the status quo once the dust settles.

I find your confidence disturbing. While you have apparently been Rip Van Winkling your way through the last two years, a tidal shift in support has left Israel with vastly more critics than ever before - and enough of them possess very sharp elbows that won’t permit the status quo to prevail in the long run.

You vastly overestimate how much governments care. Even the surrounding Arab governments barely care. Israel will lose the support of a few Western countries and then this will blow over. Then in 10 years most everyone will forget.

This exactly.
The Arab world isn't longing for Palestinians to come to their countries...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed.

Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East.

You're avoiding the second point I'm making. If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that? Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place? That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.

And why exactly do you think this is? Do you really think it's just because of antisemitism? Or do you think it may have to do with how they were treated, or how Israel was created in the first place?

Regardless of the cause, this is where we are now. Are you endorsing their goals or not? Do you like the idea of the Palestinians killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews?

Sounds like you like the idea and are trying to justify the Zionist killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Palestinians.

I do not like either side killing each other, but for the most part, I don’t see people arguing for the destruction of Gaza and the annihilation of its people. I certainly don’t.

On the other hand, I do see a fair amount of people arguing for the destruction of Israel, like in this thread. Then they dodge the follow up question of whether Jews should be killed in the hundreds of thousands. Like you.

You seem to be commenting a lot about what you think Palestinians are saying/wanting, while completely ignoring Israel's complicity in creating those viewpoints.

Do you think Israel bears no repercussions for their brutality and crimes? What consequences do you think they should face for their horrific treatment of Palestinians?

Israel is not the victim. Yes, Jews were the victims in the Holocaust, but tragically many Jews are complicit in now becoming the oppressor. You can't expect Palestinians to just be like "oh well, let's all move on!" without deep feelings of anger. What actions do you think Israel ought to take to do to amend for their actions (while still currently engaging in war crimes)? Or do you still think they're the sad little victim and everyone is just anti-Semitic?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed.

Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East.

You're avoiding the second point I'm making. If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that? Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place? That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.

DP

Massive, seismic, actual democratic reform - that’s what I’m hoping for.

I agree with my sock puppet (🙄) to the point that Israel should never have been established (including for the reason that the more noble act would have been to ensure that Jewish people were able to live safely anywhere), but that horse is outta the barn and I think the only realistic goal now is to force the massive structural reform approach.

What do you mean by democratic reform. Are you talking about the one state solution? The mythical democratic, secular, one state solution? I'd have better luck winning the lottery. The two sides can't even trust each other enough to agree on a two state solution. How is this mythical one state solution supposed to work?

You can live beside someone you hate. India and Pakistan are examples of this. Turkey and Greece are examples of this. Push them together though and it inevitably leads to civil war. It's like the difference between living with a neighbor and a roommate. You can tolerate a bad neighbor sometimes. Almost nobody tolerates a bad roommate.

People seem to forget these two sides hate and/or fear each other. There isn't even a leader on either side that wants this. But sure, keep arguing for the destruction of Israel. Why are you even using those words? Just use the words "democratic reform." If you ever want this to work you need the Israelis to be on board, and antagonizing them with the wrong language doesn't seem like a winning tactic.

Ah, if only filibustering was an option! Status quo is off the table.

Status quo is likely what will happen. Who knows what will happen with Gaza, but the West Bank will still be there. There’s your status quo.

The two sides aren’t any closer to a two state solution, and a Palestinian one state solution is a pipe dream. Maybe there is an outside shot at a three state solution, but I don’t see it.

We’ll be back with the status quo once the dust settles.

I find your confidence disturbing. While you have apparently been Rip Van Winkling your way through the last two years, a tidal shift in support has left Israel with vastly more critics than ever before - and enough of them possess very sharp elbows that won’t permit the status quo to prevail in the long run.

You vastly overestimate how much governments care. Even the surrounding Arab governments barely care. Israel will lose the support of a few Western countries and then this will blow over. Then in 10 years most everyone will forget.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Ben Gurion was the first Prime Minister of Israel. Wikipedia says his nationality was Israeli, Ottoman, and Palestinian. But he was definitely born in Poland.

o

You’re conflating nationality with ethnicity.

Anonymous wrote:
Ben Gurion was the first Prime Minister of Israel. Wikipedia says his nationality was Israeli, Ottoman, and Palestinian. But he was definitely born in Poland.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed.

Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East.

You're avoiding the second point I'm making. If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that? Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place? That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.

And why exactly do you think this is? Do you really think it's just because of antisemitism? Or do you think it may have to do with how they were treated, or how Israel was created in the first place?

Regardless of the cause, this is where we are now. Are you endorsing their goals or not? Do you like the idea of the Palestinians killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews?

Sounds like you like the idea and are trying to justify the Zionist killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Palestinians.

I do not like either side killing each other, but for the most part, I don’t see people arguing for the destruction of Gaza and the annihilation of its people. I certainly don’t.

On the other hand, I do see a fair amount of people arguing for the destruction of Israel, like in this thread. Then they dodge the follow up question of whether Jews should be killed in the hundreds of thousands. Like you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed.

Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East.

You're avoiding the second point I'm making. If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that? Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place? That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.

And why exactly do you think this is? Do you really think it's just because of antisemitism? Or do you think it may have to do with how they were treated, or how Israel was created in the first place?

Regardless of the cause, this is where we are now. Are you endorsing their goals or not? Do you like the idea of the Palestinians killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews?

Bullshit. This is bullshit. You can't say "well, this is where we are now, I don't want to face consequences for my actions." You're not going to archive peace by being inhumanely dismissive of history and brutality.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed.

Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East.

You're avoiding the second point I'm making. If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that? Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place? That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.

And why exactly do you think this is? Do you really think it's just because of antisemitism? Or do you think it may have to do with how they were treated, or how Israel was created in the first place?

Regardless of the cause, this is where we are now. Are you endorsing their goals or not? Do you like the idea of the Palestinians killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed.

Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East.

You're avoiding the second point I'm making. If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that? Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place? That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.

And why exactly do you think this is? Do you really think it's just because of antisemitism? Or do you think it may have to do with how they were treated, or how Israel was created in the first place?

Regardless of the cause, this is where we are now. Are you endorsing their goals or not? Do you like the idea of the Palestinians killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews?

Sounds like you like the idea and are trying to justify the Zionist killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Palestinians.

I do not like either side killing each other, but for the most part, I don’t see people arguing for the destruction of Gaza and the annihilation of its people. I certainly don’t.

On the other hand, I do see a fair amount of people arguing for the destruction of Israel, like in this thread. Then they dodge the follow up question of whether Jews should be killed in the hundreds of thousands. Like you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed.

Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East.

You're avoiding the second point I'm making. If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that? Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place? That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.

DP

Massive, seismic, actual democratic reform - that’s what I’m hoping for.

I agree with my sock puppet (🙄) to the point that Israel should never have been established (including for the reason that the more noble act would have been to ensure that Jewish people were able to live safely anywhere), but that horse is outta the barn and I think the only realistic goal now is to force the massive structural reform approach.

What do you mean by democratic reform. Are you talking about the one state solution? The mythical democratic, secular, one state solution? I'd have better luck winning the lottery. The two sides can't even trust each other enough to agree on a two state solution. How is this mythical one state solution supposed to work?

You can live beside someone you hate. India and Pakistan are examples of this. Turkey and Greece are examples of this. Push them together though and it inevitably leads to civil war. It's like the difference between living with a neighbor and a roommate. You can tolerate a bad neighbor sometimes. Almost nobody tolerates a bad roommate.

People seem to forget these two sides hate and/or fear each other. There isn't even a leader on either side that wants this. But sure, keep arguing for the destruction of Israel. Why are you even using those words? Just use the words "democratic reform." If you ever want this to work you need the Israelis to be on board, and antagonizing them with the wrong language doesn't seem like a winning tactic.

Ah, if only filibustering was an option! Status quo is off the table.

Status quo is likely what will happen. Who knows what will happen with Gaza, but the West Bank will still be there. There’s your status quo.

The two sides aren’t any closer to a two state solution, and a Palestinian one state solution is a pipe dream. Maybe there is an outside shot at a three state solution, but I don’t see it.

We’ll be back with the status quo once the dust settles.

I find your confidence disturbing. While you have apparently been Rip Van Winkling your way through the last two years, a tidal shift in support has left Israel with vastly more critics than ever before - and enough of them possess very sharp elbows that won’t permit the status quo to prevail in the long run.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed.

Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East.

You're avoiding the second point I'm making. If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that? Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place? That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.

DP

Massive, seismic, actual democratic reform - that’s what I’m hoping for.

I agree with my sock puppet (🙄) to the point that Israel should never have been established (including for the reason that the more noble act would have been to ensure that Jewish people were able to live safely anywhere), but that horse is outta the barn and I think the only realistic goal now is to force the massive structural reform approach.

What do you mean by democratic reform. Are you talking about the one state solution? The mythical democratic, secular, one state solution? I'd have better luck winning the lottery. The two sides can't even trust each other enough to agree on a two state solution. How is this mythical one state solution supposed to work?

You can live beside someone you hate. India and Pakistan are examples of this. Turkey and Greece are examples of this. Push them together though and it inevitably leads to civil war. It's like the difference between living with a neighbor and a roommate. You can tolerate a bad neighbor sometimes. Almost nobody tolerates a bad roommate.

People seem to forget these two sides hate and/or fear each other. There isn't even a leader on either side that wants this. But sure, keep arguing for the destruction of Israel. Why are you even using those words? Just use the words "democratic reform." If you ever want this to work you need the Israelis to be on board, and antagonizing them with the wrong language doesn't seem like a winning tactic.

Ah, if only filibustering was an option! Status quo is off the table.

Status quo is likely what will happen. Who knows what will happen with Gaza, but the West Bank will still be there. There’s your status quo.

The two sides aren’t any closer to a two state solution, and a Palestinian one state solution is a pipe dream. Maybe there is an outside shot at a three state solution, but I don’t see it.

We’ll be back with the status quo once the dust settles.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed.

Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East.

You're avoiding the second point I'm making. If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that? Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place? That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.

DP

Massive, seismic, actual democratic reform - that’s what I’m hoping for.

I agree with my sock puppet (🙄) to the point that Israel should never have been established (including for the reason that the more noble act would have been to ensure that Jewish people were able to live safely anywhere), but that horse is outta the barn and I think the only realistic goal now is to force the massive structural reform approach.

What do you mean by democratic reform. Are you talking about the one state solution? The mythical democratic, secular, one state solution? I'd have better luck winning the lottery. The two sides can't even trust each other enough to agree on a two state solution. How is this mythical one state solution supposed to work?

You can live beside someone you hate. India and Pakistan are examples of this. Turkey and Greece are examples of this. Push them together though and it inevitably leads to civil war. It's like the difference between living with a neighbor and a roommate. You can tolerate a bad neighbor sometimes. Almost nobody tolerates a bad roommate.

People seem to forget these two sides hate and/or fear each other. There isn't even a leader on either side that wants this. But sure, keep arguing for the destruction of Israel. Why are you even using those words? Just use the words "democratic reform." If you ever want this to work you need the Israelis to be on board, and antagonizing them with the wrong language doesn't seem like a winning tactic.

Ah, if only filibustering was an option! Status quo is off the table.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed.

Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East.

You're avoiding the second point I'm making. If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that? Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place? That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.

And why exactly do you think this is? Do you really think it's just because of antisemitism? Or do you think it may have to do with how they were treated, or how Israel was created in the first place?

Regardless of the cause, this is where we are now. Are you endorsing their goals or not? Do you like the idea of the Palestinians killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews?

Sounds like you like the idea and are trying to justify the Zionist killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Palestinians.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed.

Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East.

You're avoiding the second point I'm making. If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that? Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place? That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.

DP

Massive, seismic, actual democratic reform - that’s what I’m hoping for.

I agree with my sock puppet (🙄) to the point that Israel should never have been established (including for the reason that the more noble act would have been to ensure that Jewish people were able to live safely anywhere), but that horse is outta the barn and I think the only realistic goal now is to force the massive structural reform approach.

What do you mean by democratic reform. Are you talking about the one state solution? The mythical democratic, secular, one state solution? I'd have better luck winning the lottery. The two sides can't even trust each other enough to agree on a two state solution. How is this mythical one state solution supposed to work?

You can live beside someone you hate. India and Pakistan are examples of this. Turkey and Greece are examples of this. Push them together though and it inevitably leads to civil war. It's like the difference between living with a neighbor and a roommate. You can tolerate a bad neighbor sometimes. Almost nobody tolerates a bad roommate.

People seem to forget these two sides hate and/or fear each other. There isn't even a leader on either side that wants this. But sure, keep arguing for the destruction of Israel. Why are you even using those words? Just use the words "democratic reform." If you ever want this to work you need the Israelis to be on board, and antagonizing them with the wrong language doesn't seem like a winning tactic.