Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oldest 2 boys are probably mean. They exclude other boys and hold weak ones in semi-open disdain. We didn’t teach them to be this way but it came to them naturally.

They’re not cruel, though. The funny thing is they’re rewarded for their behavior by the other boys and girls.

And you know you have to rein it in, instead of writing that out as if you were proud of them?

Disagree. They’re not cruel and it helps them socially. They were raised to be strong, so not sure why I’d try to teach them something different after all these years.

I am proud of their strength, and I should be. DH and I made choices to raise good men, and we got what we wanted.

How does it show strength when they are disdainful of weaker children??? I see plenty of strong young men around my children's school and they have nothing to prove to anyone, no need to show off by bullying others. I see kids like your sons and they don't look strong, they look ridiculous. And if you're not sure why you'd teach your sons to be something other than "mean" (your words, in your first post), then you're probably beyond help.

Good question. As DH explains it, boys need hierarchy. Our two oldest exclude those who try to buck it. I should have been more clear.

This forum has a feminine take on protecting the weak. However, because my boys are strong, I don’t always agree with that reflex. Moms I know with strong sons think the way I do.

ayn rand has emntered the chat

My DS1 (now grown) definitely was mean sometimes--he had a very sharp tongue and an unfortunate desire to show it off. He was not very empathetic TBH. We were very aware of it (we observed it ourselves and also fielded many, many complaints from school about his classroom behavior), and we spent a lot of time addressing it: talking talking talking to him about it, expressing our disapproval, applying consequences again and again. It was extremely concerning to us and something we took very seriously.

In 8th grade, he had 2 classes with a boy we'll call Larlo who was very much like him. This kid drove DS crazy. After listening to DS complain about him a few times, I pointed out that Larlo really sounded a lot like DS in some ways. You could see DS recoil. It was like a light finally went on. We never heard another bad report from from a teacher after that.

DH and I still talk fondly about Larlo occasionally, LOL. We don't know where he is or what happened to him, but we are grateful for his influence. DS has grown into a nice young man with a lovely circle of friends.

My younger daughter is definitely “sassy” and we spend a lot of time working with her on it and talking about how her behavior and her words impact others. I ask around, I talk to her teacher, she sounds like she’s a lot better this year than she was last year and we will continue to keep an eye on her and the kids she spends time with - definitely worked on diversifying her friend group over the summer which helped a lot.

The strongest kids are the ones who buck the hierarchy and look out for the vulnerable. The weakest are afraid to disrupt the status quo.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oldest 2 boys are probably mean. They exclude other boys and hold weak ones in semi-open disdain. We didn’t teach them to be this way but it came to them naturally.

They’re not cruel, though. The funny thing is they’re rewarded for their behavior by the other boys and girls.

And you know you have to rein it in, instead of writing that out as if you were proud of them?

Disagree. They’re not cruel and it helps them socially. They were raised to be strong, so not sure why I’d try to teach them something different after all these years.

I am proud of their strength, and I should be. DH and I made choices to raise good men, and we got what we wanted.

How does it show strength when they are disdainful of weaker children??? I see plenty of strong young men around my children's school and they have nothing to prove to anyone, no need to show off by bullying others. I see kids like your sons and they don't look strong, they look ridiculous. And if you're not sure why you'd teach your sons to be something other than "mean" (your words, in your first post), then you're probably beyond help.

Good question. As DH explains it, boys need hierarchy. Our two oldest exclude those who try to buck it. I should have been more clear.

This forum has a feminine take on protecting the weak. However, because my boys are strong, I don’t always agree with that reflex. Moms I know with strong sons think the way I do.

You and your “strong” sons are repulsive.

Our DS did some mean things, but he was part of a group of very mean boys. It was heartbreaking because it was against his nature, but he was being subjected to garbage all day long, and that's what happens.

We moved schools and it's vastly improved, but he's still unsure of himself -- but now it manifests as keeping himself distant.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oldest 2 boys are probably mean. They exclude other boys and hold weak ones in semi-open disdain. We didn’t teach them to be this way but it came to them naturally.

They’re not cruel, though. The funny thing is they’re rewarded for their behavior by the other boys and girls.

And you know you have to rein it in, instead of writing that out as if you were proud of them?

Disagree. They’re not cruel and it helps them socially. They were raised to be strong, so not sure why I’d try to teach them something different after all these years.

I am proud of their strength, and I should be. DH and I made choices to raise good men, and we got what we wanted.

How does it show strength when they are disdainful of weaker children??? I see plenty of strong young men around my children's school and they have nothing to prove to anyone, no need to show off by bullying others. I see kids like your sons and they don't look strong, they look ridiculous. And if you're not sure why you'd teach your sons to be something other than "mean" (your words, in your first post), then you're probably beyond help.

Good question. As DH explains it, boys need hierarchy. Our two oldest exclude those who try to buck it. I should have been more clear.

This forum has a feminine take on protecting the weak. However, because my boys are strong, I don’t always agree with that reflex. Moms I know with strong sons think the way I do.

The idea of protecting the weak comes out of Christianity. If it weren't for a religion that exulted a guy who was willing to die the most humiliating death the Roman empire had available, nobody would be all about protecting the weak.

And I'd be terrified of living in a society with Roman ideals, where women are property. Wouldn't you?

I'm much happier to be from a specific sub-culture where hierarchy exists, but it exists for the very purpose of protecting the weak. Strength isn't strength when it's used to build yourself up. That's just will-to-power. Strength is strength when it's used for the good of those who otherwise can't help themselves.

Or as someone who led the natural physical movement drive used to say (maybe still does, it's been years since I followed them), "Strong to be useful." This was a guy who trained Navy SEALs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oldest 2 boys are probably mean. They exclude other boys and hold weak ones in semi-open disdain. We didn’t teach them to be this way but it came to them naturally.

They’re not cruel, though. The funny thing is they’re rewarded for their behavior by the other boys and girls.

And you know you have to rein it in, instead of writing that out as if you were proud of them?

Disagree. They’re not cruel and it helps them socially. They were raised to be strong, so not sure why I’d try to teach them something different after all these years.

I am proud of their strength, and I should be. DH and I made choices to raise good men, and we got what we wanted.

My DD was being repeatedly sexually harassed this year by boys whose parents probably view them this way. Little baby Brock Turners is what you’re raising.

+1. It terrifies me that there are parents who think this is not just fine, but good even. Like - did you people not see how society treated Brock Turners' dad? Justifiably?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oldest 2 boys are probably mean. They exclude other boys and hold weak ones in semi-open disdain. We didn’t teach them to be this way but it came to them naturally.

They’re not cruel, though. The funny thing is they’re rewarded for their behavior by the other boys and girls.

And you know you have to rein it in, instead of writing that out as if you were proud of them?

Disagree. They’re not cruel and it helps them socially. They were raised to be strong, so not sure why I’d try to teach them something different after all these years.

I am proud of their strength, and I should be. DH and I made choices to raise good men, and we got what we wanted.

How does it show strength when they are disdainful of weaker children??? I see plenty of strong young men around my children's school and they have nothing to prove to anyone, no need to show off by bullying others. I see kids like your sons and they don't look strong, they look ridiculous. And if you're not sure why you'd teach your sons to be something other than "mean" (your words, in your first post), then you're probably beyond help.

Good question. As DH explains it, boys need hierarchy. Our two oldest exclude those who try to buck it. I should have been more clear.

This forum has a feminine take on protecting the weak. However, because my boys are strong, I don’t always agree with that reflex. Moms I know with strong sons think the way I do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I talk to parents who know their kids are kind of mean and really just shrug it off. They tell themselves not everyone can be friends, kids are kids, what are they supposed to do when little Larla doesn't want to hang around with Larlette anymore. And they don't care because their kid is usually doing fine socially.

If they are confronted about specific behavior by another parent, they don't respond well and they tell everyone they know too and paint it like the other parent is a lunatic. This is why my go to advice is never say anything to the parents. Even if you think it went well, it didn't.

Well, part of that is true- if Larla has a number of good friends, and has had some disagreements with Larlette or they no longer share the same interests, why should they be forced to hang out together? It is true, not everyone can be friends. I don't think Larla should be mean to Larlette but it doesn't mean she has to invite her to her birthday, or choose her as a partner in class, or actively seek her out at recess, if she prefers different friends right now. It is not Larla's job to fix Larlette's social struggles. And yeah, if you confront Larla's mom about Larlette not being invited to something, you do kind of look like a lunatic, unless the "something" is a full class party and Larlette was the only one excluded (if that happens, i'm totally on Larlette's side, don't worry)

Well let's be real. This is not usually what it is. Kids who can ditch other kids to trade up to what they perceive as a cooler/better set of friends, a lot of times they do it. Acting like these kids are all rationally evaluating who they have things in common with or subtly distancing themselves after a disagreement is pretty laughable.

My view is life isn't fair. By middle school, a whole bunch of variables that have zero to do with what kind of person you are and how you treat other people begin to have value. Kids have to work through all this and figure out what they are willing to do and who they are in this context. If you are rich and/or attractive, this is when they start figuring this out and the power this gives them.

I honestly think a lot of this has to do with maturation rates- yeah, a 12 year old girl who has gone through puberty and is "boy crazy", fashion obsessed, etc is not going to have a ton in common with her 12 year old neighbor- who used to be a pretty good friend- who has not yet gone through puberty, is more interested in dolls than boys, and doesn't care about fashion. Even if they got along fantastically as 9 year olds. That is honestly just life. In my experience- as an adult woman who experienced this dynamic as the less mature girl, and who saw it play out time and time again with other friends, younger siblings, etc- kids who actually have a lot in common at the core will circle back around when they're both older and on the same wavelength again, but you can't force it. And yeah they aren't going to be subtle about it because they're 12. They shouldn't be actively unkind and that's where parenting comes in, but these kids are all a work in progress.

Agree...one of the variables that isn't fair and impacts all this is 100 percent how fast or slow you mature. The kids who mature faster have a social advantage in middle school. I also think it's the role of Larlette's parents in all these scenarios to not villainize Larla and to help Larlette make sense of what's going on in a way that's compassionate. A lot of Larlette parents just get really angry and bitter and make things worse when I agree kids can get older and come back around to each other. They are all kids figuring it out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oldest 2 boys are probably mean. They exclude other boys and hold weak ones in semi-open disdain. We didn’t teach them to be this way but it came to them naturally.

They’re not cruel, though. The funny thing is they’re rewarded for their behavior by the other boys and girls.

And you know you have to rein it in, instead of writing that out as if you were proud of them?

Disagree. They’re not cruel and it helps them socially. They were raised to be strong, so not sure why I’d try to teach them something different after all these years.

I am proud of their strength, and I should be. DH and I made choices to raise good men, and we got what we wanted.

My DD was being repeatedly sexually harassed this year by boys whose parents probably view them this way. Little baby Brock Turners is what you’re raising.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I talk to parents who know their kids are kind of mean and really just shrug it off. They tell themselves not everyone can be friends, kids are kids, what are they supposed to do when little Larla doesn't want to hang around with Larlette anymore. And they don't care because their kid is usually doing fine socially.

If they are confronted about specific behavior by another parent, they don't respond well and they tell everyone they know too and paint it like the other parent is a lunatic. This is why my go to advice is never say anything to the parents. Even if you think it went well, it didn't.

Well, part of that is true- if Larla has a number of good friends, and has had some disagreements with Larlette or they no longer share the same interests, why should they be forced to hang out together? It is true, not everyone can be friends. I don't think Larla should be mean to Larlette but it doesn't mean she has to invite her to her birthday, or choose her as a partner in class, or actively seek her out at recess, if she prefers different friends right now. It is not Larla's job to fix Larlette's social struggles. And yeah, if you confront Larla's mom about Larlette not being invited to something, you do kind of look like a lunatic, unless the "something" is a full class party and Larlette was the only one excluded (if that happens, i'm totally on Larlette's side, don't worry)

Well let's be real. This is not usually what it is. Kids who can ditch other kids to trade up to what they perceive as a cooler/better set of friends, a lot of times they do it. Acting like these kids are all rationally evaluating who they have things in common with or subtly distancing themselves after a disagreement is pretty laughable.

My view is life isn't fair. By middle school, a whole bunch of variables that have zero to do with what kind of person you are and how you treat other people begin to have value. Kids have to work through all this and figure out what they are willing to do and who they are in this context. If you are rich and/or attractive, this is when they start figuring this out and the power this gives them.

I honestly think a lot of this has to do with maturation rates- yeah, a 12 year old girl who has gone through puberty and is "boy crazy", fashion obsessed, etc is not going to have a ton in common with her 12 year old neighbor- who used to be a pretty good friend- who has not yet gone through puberty, is more interested in dolls than boys, and doesn't care about fashion. Even if they got along fantastically as 9 year olds. That is honestly just life. In my experience- as an adult woman who experienced this dynamic as the less mature girl, and who saw it play out time and time again with other friends, younger siblings, etc- kids who actually have a lot in common at the core will circle back around when they're both older and on the same wavelength again, but you can't force it. And yeah they aren't going to be subtle about it because they're 12. They shouldn't be actively unkind and that's where parenting comes in, but these kids are all a work in progress.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I talk to parents who know their kids are kind of mean and really just shrug it off. They tell themselves not everyone can be friends, kids are kids, what are they supposed to do when little Larla doesn't want to hang around with Larlette anymore. And they don't care because their kid is usually doing fine socially.

If they are confronted about specific behavior by another parent, they don't respond well and they tell everyone they know too and paint it like the other parent is a lunatic. This is why my go to advice is never say anything to the parents. Even if you think it went well, it didn't.

Well, part of that is true- if Larla has a number of good friends, and has had some disagreements with Larlette or they no longer share the same interests, why should they be forced to hang out together? It is true, not everyone can be friends. I don't think Larla should be mean to Larlette but it doesn't mean she has to invite her to her birthday, or choose her as a partner in class, or actively seek her out at recess, if she prefers different friends right now. It is not Larla's job to fix Larlette's social struggles. And yeah, if you confront Larla's mom about Larlette not being invited to something, you do kind of look like a lunatic, unless the "something" is a full class party and Larlette was the only one excluded (if that happens, i'm totally on Larlette's side, don't worry)

I agree this is all perfectly reasonable. The chances of tweens/teens handling these situations gracefully and kindly and not being mean along the way is pretty close to zero. When Larlette gets ditched it usually is slash and burn. And Larla doesn't tell her parents what's really going on or what's been said and done. Of course not. And the parents shrug it off. A lot of relational aggression and parents miss opportunities to coach their kids. In my opinion.

You're right, but I think the middle school years in particular have always been like this. Kids mature at different rates, they start to figure out what kind of person they want to be, and they actively want to shed anything that doesn't meet their definiition, in their mind, of the person they want to be. Including, usually, their parents, many of their childhood toys, friends who haven't matured as quickly or friends who are focused on activities or style trends that are, in a middle schooler's mind, incredibly uncool- which is usually just code for "not what I personally enjoy and not part of the image i'm trying to create for myself as I turn from a child into an adult", but comes out as "uncool". Yes, there are tons of missed opportunities to help guide these kids along the way because no one ever gets the full story (neither larla's mom OR larlette's mom), but most of these kids wouldn't take direct guidance from mom at this age anyways. I think the best we can do is model kind behavior, discuss kind behavior in a roundabout, indirect way as much as humanely possible, and hope the middle school years pass as uneventfully as possible.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I talk to parents who know their kids are kind of mean and really just shrug it off. They tell themselves not everyone can be friends, kids are kids, what are they supposed to do when little Larla doesn't want to hang around with Larlette anymore. And they don't care because their kid is usually doing fine socially.

If they are confronted about specific behavior by another parent, they don't respond well and they tell everyone they know too and paint it like the other parent is a lunatic. This is why my go to advice is never say anything to the parents. Even if you think it went well, it didn't.

Well, part of that is true- if Larla has a number of good friends, and has had some disagreements with Larlette or they no longer share the same interests, why should they be forced to hang out together? It is true, not everyone can be friends. I don't think Larla should be mean to Larlette but it doesn't mean she has to invite her to her birthday, or choose her as a partner in class, or actively seek her out at recess, if she prefers different friends right now. It is not Larla's job to fix Larlette's social struggles. And yeah, if you confront Larla's mom about Larlette not being invited to something, you do kind of look like a lunatic, unless the "something" is a full class party and Larlette was the only one excluded (if that happens, i'm totally on Larlette's side, don't worry)

Well let's be real. This is not usually what it is. Kids who can ditch other kids to trade up to what they perceive as a cooler/better set of friends, a lot of times they do it. Acting like these kids are all rationally evaluating who they have things in common with or subtly distancing themselves after a disagreement is pretty laughable.

My view is life isn't fair. By middle school, a whole bunch of variables that have zero to do with what kind of person you are and how you treat other people begin to have value. Kids have to work through all this and figure out what they are willing to do and who they are in this context. If you are rich and/or attractive, this is when they start figuring this out and the power this gives them.

A lot of those kids have parents who behave the same way.