Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any normal, rational person with any critical thinking skills is atheist,

I think what some of you are objecting to is those who are anti-theist. I don’t like them either — unless they can make the case what harm does religious belief do?

Any normal, rational person with any critical thinking skills is agnostic.

+1 Agnostic is where its at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Hayhoe

This woman is a climate scientist and a Christian . People can be rational, critical thinkers and spiritual. The view that if one is a critical thinker, they can not also believe in the spiritual realm would show a lack of critical thinking.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On this forum? No. Way back in grad school, I followed a listserv forum where atheists and theists debated and argued. The ability of the theists to answer the atheists arguments and objections with intellectual rigor as well as grace helped persuade me to embrace Christianity.

Well then you should post those arguments here because the theists here to a p*ss poor job of it.

Just as it was claimed above, that “the internet has been one of the biggest support mechanisms for those seeking to lose the burden of faith”, so it is also a resource of rational, cogent argument in defense of Christianity.

Again, please present it, because I have never, ever seen one. Present one, the best one you know.

The life and work of Tim Keller which is preserved forever on the Gospel in Life website. There are 30 years worth of the best sermons ever given about Christianity, why it is both beautiful and radically different from any other philosophical view of life, and why people should doubt their doubts. Keller’s sermons are so intellectually deep yet connected to the problems of today. He wins the mind and the heart. It is a rare combination.

I say this as someone who identified as an atheist or agnostic for a long time before I found Keller. He literally changed the entire way I looked at the universe in one month.

His highly successful church in NYC started with a base of zero members. He found a way to make Christianity relevant and meaningful in one of the least likely places on planet earth and the many conversions there are a testament to the way he lived out his faith and connected with people.

It sounds like Tim Keller as an excellent and convincing speaker. That doesn't necessarily mean that Christianity is real. It does mean that he built up his church financially.

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No, of course not — but he makes a very strong intellectual case that it is real. I would highly recommend listening to his sermons before dismissing Christianity.

I would highly recommend objectivity when evaluating supernatural claims.

If his argument had any substance we would all know it already. And you would have presented it. But it is likely, like all sermons, mere confirmation biased for the brainwashed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On this forum? No. Way back in grad school, I followed a listserv forum where atheists and theists debated and argued. The ability of the theists to answer the atheists arguments and objections with intellectual rigor as well as grace helped persuade me to embrace Christianity.

Well then you should post those arguments here because the theists here to a p*ss poor job of it.

Just as it was claimed above, that “the internet has been one of the biggest support mechanisms for those seeking to lose the burden of faith”, so it is also a resource of rational, cogent argument in defense of Christianity.

Again, please present it, because I have never, ever seen one. Present one, the best one you know.

The life and work of Tim Keller which is preserved forever on the Gospel in Life website. There are 30 years worth of the best sermons ever given about Christianity, why it is both beautiful and radically different from any other philosophical view of life, and why people should doubt their doubts. Keller’s sermons are so intellectually deep yet connected to the problems of today. He wins the mind and the heart. It is a rare combination.

I say this as someone who identified as an atheist or agnostic for a long time before I found Keller. He literally changed the entire way I looked at the universe in one month.

His highly successful church in NYC started with a base of zero members. He found a way to make Christianity relevant and meaningful in one of the least likely places on planet earth and the many conversions there are a testament to the way he lived out his faith and connected with people.

It sounds like Tim Keller as an excellent and convincing speaker. That doesn't necessarily mean that Christianity is real. It does mean that he built up his church financially.

.

No, of course not — but he makes a very strong intellectual case that it is real. I would highly recommend listening to his sermons before dismissing Christianity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On this forum? No. Way back in grad school, I followed a listserv forum where atheists and theists debated and argued. The ability of the theists to answer the atheists arguments and objections with intellectual rigor as well as grace helped persuade me to embrace Christianity.

Well then you should post those arguments here because the theists here to a p*ss poor job of it.

Just as it was claimed above, that “the internet has been one of the biggest support mechanisms for those seeking to lose the burden of faith”, so it is also a resource of rational, cogent argument in defense of Christianity.

Again, please present it, because I have never, ever seen one. Present one, the best one you know.

The life and work of Tim Keller which is preserved forever on the Gospel in Life website. There are 30 years worth of the best sermons ever given about Christianity, why it is both beautiful and radically different from any other philosophical view of life, and why people should doubt their doubts. Keller’s sermons are so intellectually deep yet connected to the problems of today. He wins the mind and the heart. It is a rare combination.

I say this as someone who identified as an atheist or agnostic for a long time before I found Keller. He literally changed the entire way I looked at the universe in one month.

His highly successful church in NYC started with a base of zero members. He found a way to make Christianity relevant and meaningful in one of the least likely places on planet earth and the many conversions there are a testament to the way he lived out his faith and connected with people.

It sounds like Tim Keller as an excellent and convincing speaker. That doesn't necessarily mean that Christianity is real. It does mean that he built up his church financially.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any normal, rational person with any critical thinking skills is atheist,

I think what some of you are objecting to is those who are anti-theist. I don’t like them either — unless they can make the case what harm does religious belief do?

Any normal, rational person with any critical thinking skills is agnostic.

Based on the definition of agnostic that you are using.

Yeah, that's my point. Blanket statements are pointless posturing by the Dunning Kruger's of the world.

This forum has taught me that people love to be offended and view it as their god given right.
I am surprised by the number of posters who obviously wear their religion on their sleeve and see a reason to complain about anything and everything

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any normal, rational person with any critical thinking skills is atheist,

I think what some of you are objecting to is those who are anti-theist. I don’t like them either — unless they can make the case what harm does religious belief do?

Any normal, rational person with any critical thinking skills is agnostic.

Based on the definition of agnostic that you are using.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On this forum? No. Way back in grad school, I followed a listserv forum where atheists and theists debated and argued. The ability of the theists to answer the atheists arguments and objections with intellectual rigor as well as grace helped persuade me to embrace Christianity.

Well then you should post those arguments here because the theists here to a p*ss poor job of it.

Just as it was claimed above, that “the internet has been one of the biggest support mechanisms for those seeking to lose the burden of faith”, so it is also a resource of rational, cogent argument in defense of Christianity.

Again, please present it, because I have never, ever seen one. Present one, the best one you know.

The life and work of Tim Keller which is preserved forever on the Gospel in Life website. There are 30 years worth of the best sermons ever given about Christianity, why it is both beautiful and radically different from any other philosophical view of life, and why people should doubt their doubts. Keller’s sermons are so intellectually deep yet connected to the problems of today. He wins the mind and the heart. It is a rare combination.

I say this as someone who identified as an atheist or agnostic for a long time before I found Keller. He literally changed the entire way I looked at the universe in one month.

His highly successful church in NYC started with a base of zero members. He found a way to make Christianity relevant and meaningful in one of the least likely places on planet earth and the many conversions there are a testament to the way he lived out his faith and connected with people.

too sexist for me

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I appreciate the thoughtful reply, but with good intent I need to point out they both include "obey".

In addition to demanding belief in a god who hides on purpose and punishes those for eternity who don't discover him.

Immoral, from my position.

Let’s put aside the unreached, which is a very complicated topic and one where I believe the answer simply is “we don’t know.”

For everyone else — God is hardly hidden. In fact, if you assume Christianity is true for a minute, it would seem like the most dramatic revelation of God that one can imagine — a person who lives the perfect life, performs miracles, teaches a profound new way of living, dies in the most horrific and public way imaginable, and then resurrects from the dead. His biographies are then preserved in a way that accurately reflects what happened AND, because the original apostles were fishermen and not theologians, God takes one of the greatest theologian of the time period, Paul, leads him to have a conversion experience, sends him out to plant churches everywhere, and then write letters to these churches explaining the Christian doctrine, letters that we are still reading 2,000 years later.

I know it’s a lot of steps, but, if you believe it is true or more likely than not to be true (which is what I think the test really is) — we don’t really need another sign. I certainly don’t.

But anyway — it’s kind of besides the point of my post. Someone asked what makes Christianity unique. I was writing in response to that question.

To me, you sound like an intelligent person who's trying to talk themselves into believing in God. In particular, the Christian God.

You've thought it through and figured it out. To you, God is real. It's simply logical.

Anonymous wrote:I appreciate the thoughtful reply, but with good intent I need to point out they both include "obey".

In addition to demanding belief in a god who hides on purpose and punishes those for eternity who don't discover him.

Immoral, from my position.

Let’s put aside the unreached, which is a very complicated topic and one where I believe the answer simply is “we don’t know.”

For everyone else — God is hardly hidden. In fact, if you assume Christianity is true for a minute, it would seem like the most dramatic revelation of God that one can imagine — a person who lives the perfect life, performs miracles, teaches a profound new way of living, dies in the most horrific and public way imaginable, and then resurrects from the dead. His biographies are then preserved in a way that accurately reflects what happened AND, because the original apostles were fishermen and not theologians, God takes one of the greatest theologian of the time period, Paul, leads him to have a conversion experience, sends him out to plant churches everywhere, and then write letters to these churches explaining the Christian doctrine, letters that we are still reading 2,000 years later.

I know it’s a lot of steps, but, if you believe it is true or more likely than not to be true (which is what I think the test really is) — we don’t really need another sign. I certainly don’t.

But anyway — it’s kind of besides the point of my post. Someone asked what makes Christianity unique. I was writing in response to that question.

I appreciate the thoughtful reply, but with good intent I need to point out they both include "obey".

In addition to demanding belief in a god who hides on purpose and punishes those for eternity who don't discover him.

Immoral, from my position.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On this forum? No. Way back in grad school, I followed a listserv forum where atheists and theists debated and argued. The ability of the theists to answer the atheists arguments and objections with intellectual rigor as well as grace helped persuade me to embrace Christianity.

What about the theists' responses led you to embrace Christianity instead of other religions? e.g.,, had you already been taught Christianity? Did the arguments also argue against religions other than Christianity?

I grew up a nominal Catholic and dated an Episcopalian girl in college, so I guess you could say I was biased toward the Christian faith. That doesn’t mean I wasn’t exposed to other faiths, as I had friends from my teens and in college who were Jewish, Muslim, atheist, Hindu, etc.

The things that make Christianity unique are the Incarnation, the Resurrection of Jesus, the special revelation God communicates through the Bible and the Christian basis of morality and justice that avoids relativism and oppression.

This is all true, but here is what makes Christianity unique to me.

Every other major world religion or even just belief system has some version of the following — believe in God — follow all the rules — and maybe just maybe you go to heaven/connect to the divine/reach another form of life. The order is believe — obey — saved.

The problem with this way of thinking is that it is always based on your own individual performance and achievement. Are you really being good enough? Who knows. It’s a wild crap shoot. It’s a lot of pressure. And it becomes a system for the morally strong — people who can get their lives together, people who are mentally tougher, emotionally more resilient, etc.

Christianity does not say this at all. In fact, it says precisely the opposite. Christianity is not based on your record or achievement — everything — everything is based on the record of Jesus Christ. And by having faith in him, you get the perfect record that he set 2,000 years ago. There is no “God loves me, God loves me not” type thinking — no more anxiety, nervousness, etc about whether you are being “good enough.” It’s a religion for people who are vulnerable and honest enough to admit they are weak and help (which is everyone by the way).

For sure, there are still moral norms but you obey the moral norms as a way to honor and connect to the one who died for you. You are doing it out of fullness of heart, and a love based relationship, not because you are afraid of God or trying to “get” something from God.

Instead of believe — obey — saved

the order becomes believe — saved — obey.

It is a completely different motivational structure.

When you understand this and it really goes to the depths of your heart, it changes the entire way you look at everything in the world.

That being said, many Christians do not fully understand these premises and instead make Christianity another form of moralism — follow the rules, feel guilty and shameful when you screw up, try harder to follow the rules, an endless cycle of misery, and then maybe it will work out in the end. That’s the version of Christianity I was spoon fed as a youth and it had zero appeal to me — just like it has zero appeal to most rationale people.

I consider very fortunate that as an adult I finally discovered the true Gospel in a moment of crisis. It turned around everything in my life.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On this forum? No. Way back in grad school, I followed a listserv forum where atheists and theists debated and argued. The ability of the theists to answer the atheists arguments and objections with intellectual rigor as well as grace helped persuade me to embrace Christianity.

Well then you should post those arguments here because the theists here to a p*ss poor job of it.

Just as it was claimed above, that “the internet has been one of the biggest support mechanisms for those seeking to lose the burden of faith”, so it is also a resource of rational, cogent argument in defense of Christianity.

Again, please present it, because I have never, ever seen one. Present one, the best one you know.

The life and work of Tim Keller which is preserved forever on the Gospel in Life website. There are 30 years worth of the best sermons ever given about Christianity, why it is both beautiful and radically different from any other philosophical view of life, and why people should doubt their doubts. Keller’s sermons are so intellectually deep yet connected to the problems of today. He wins the mind and the heart. It is a rare combination.

I say this as someone who identified as an atheist or agnostic for a long time before I found Keller. He literally changed the entire way I looked at the universe in one month.

His highly successful church in NYC started with a base of zero members. He found a way to make Christianity relevant and meaningful in one of the least likely places on planet earth and the many conversions there are a testament to the way he lived out his faith and connected with people.

I am a believer and raised Protestant before that meant Christian= Evangelical
I am amazed by the conflating of belief in Christ in some form or another (eg I am Unity now) with nutjob hater family values politics.
Jesus wept.