Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It can be colder and darker than your student expects.

That’s why pubs exist.

Yuck !!!

Pubs are a major negative.

DP. What? Pubs are awesome. And, I say this as a kid who was not a drinker when I was underage in US. Pub culture is more communal. Drinking is more beer than liquor. I developed a taste for beer living and studying in UK (and spending time in Poland and Czech Republic on breaks). It’s far more social where people gather and chat over drinks. Of course, some are seedy and dim, but that's it's own culture. Grave Maurice (Krays' hangout in London's east end) was the best for that.

My son turned it down in 2023. He had been SO EXCITED to get in, for International Affairs, especially since we'd only read about it at the last minute and he'd done his 1500 essay the day of the RD deadline. I'd been so excited, because I had a Scottish childhood.

But when we went to the W&M Admitted Student Day, and talked to the director of the program at St Andrews who had flown there, he realized the program was not flexible with the study abroad he wanted to do and the classes he wanted to take, compared to the Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University.

I went on DCUM at that time to ask for opinions, which were mixed: people in the know recommended Elliott, people not in the know recommended Dual Degree. For International Affairs specifically, the Dual Degree sounds more prestigious to the un-initiated... but the GW coursework is more fleshed-out, with more options and flexibility, and more internships opportunities. In general, US institutions usually have more flexibility than non-US.

This isn't to say that the Dual Degree is bad. It's very good! And Scotland is beautiful But my son had specific goals that are now being met better at GW.

Best of luck to your kid, OP.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have experience with this program? I have a kid who is intrigued by it and would love to hear more.

What's the student's social experience like? Do they get to join clubs, activities at each place? Do they feel part of each commjnity>
How many kids are in it each year? Do they stick together - is this their friend group?
How does housing work at St A's? Is it provided or do they have to find off campus flats?
Can they double major or minor in something else?

Take an anxiety pill

They are reasonable questions. There are also additional costs associated with obtaining the Tier 4 visa needed to study abroad for the time in question, as well as paying for 4 years into the UK public health system, since you effectively become a UK resident for the whole 4 year period.

Other issues are that the student by the time they enter Scotland will most likely be over 18 so free to purchase alcohol, go to pubs, etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have experience with this program? I have a kid who is intrigued by it and would love to hear more.

What's the student's social experience like? Do they get to join clubs, activities at each place? Do they feel part of each commjnity>
How many kids are in it each year? Do they stick together - is this their friend group?
How does housing work at St A's? Is it provided or do they have to find off campus flats?
Can they double major or minor in something else?

Take an anxiety pill

They don’t seem anxious, they seem curious.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where does it state that this particular programme’s graduates are eligible for any UK work visa? Don’t see it on W&M site and one would think that would be emphasised as a bonus for participating in the programme.

So per the JDP website, for US or international participants in the programme: "UK student visa maintained while at W&M". They get the equivalent visa as if they were spending four years at St Andrews (not individual visas for each year spent at St Andrews). Outlined here: https://www.wm.edu/offices/revescenter/issp/visasandimmigration/standrewsjointdegree/

So if the student graduates with a St Andrews degree (they get one from both unis), they can apply for the UK graduate visa whilst their UK student visa is still active. This is a well trodden path by international students in the UK, and the JDP students are eligible as they meet all the criteria.

^^your link states nothing about US JDP students working post-graduation in the UK

If my assumptions are correct that all JDP students receive a St Andrews degree and are on the same tier 4 UK student visa that other internationals are on: then upon graduation, they can can go to (or remain in) the UK, apply for, and receive the UK graduate visa. They meet all of the eligibility requirements.

UK student visas are issued with grace period months at the end following graduation. E.g. if it was issued in the fall of your first year, it will end in the fall four years later, giving you multiple months after graduating to apply for and receive the UK graduate visa. It is issued normally in under a month.

I could be wrong if either (a) not all JDP students get a St Andrews degree, (b) they are on a different visa (what would this even be?), but I don't think I am.

Per Cambridge's guidance on the grad visa: https://www.internationalstudents.cam.ac.uk/graduate-visa#:~:text=The%20minimum%20period%20of%20study,included%20in%20the%20minimum%20period.

"The minimum period of study for the Graduate visa is at least 12 months OR the full length of your course, whichever is shorter. Permitted 'study abroad' activities (i.e. activities that are undertaken overseas as part of a course) or time spent overseas during permitted breaks from study such as during official vacation periods or at the weekend can be included in the minimum period."

Have a student in the program, your assumptions are correct. JDP students are graduates of both institutions and get diplomas and transcripts form both institutions, They are on Tier 4 visas that extend until the fall after graduation. They are thus able to continue to live or return to the UK to apply and receive a UK graduate visa to work in the UK for 2 years as they meet all requirements to obtain a UK graduate visa.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this sounds a very expensive proposition with no AP credit allowed, travel costs, visa fees etc wow

Study abroad programs inherently require extra costs, and joint programs like these that are 2 and 2 are like study abroad on steroids. So yeah. Not for everyone.

Plus if you live in VA, you have to pay OOS tuition. That was a deal killer for us.

But you aren't technically paying OOS to UVA. you are instead paying St Andrews fees directly to St Andrewws (which is lower than OOS to W&M) Of course SA wouldn't care about deals for instate Virginia s nor would I expect it would

You aren’t paying anything to UVA. You are paying OOS tuition to WM for the two years your kid is based there, instead of instate.

Look we have pre-paid 529 that we locked in when the kids were young. So we end up paying the same thing we would for any other state college to WM— but WM is quite a bit more expensive than other state schools. So, we save a lot on top of in state tuition. WM won’t take 4 in state tuition semesters for the 4 semesters our kid would be at WM. That meant my IR kid would empty their 529, rather than having money left over for a decent portion of a masters.

If you aren’t doing college and grad school of a budget, this doesn’t apply to you. We are. And it’s important to us our kid gets out of undergrad with no debt and we minimize the grad school debt, so loan repayment doesn’t have to factor into her early career decisions. The cost of the JDP program may be reasonable in your eyes. But it didn’t make financial sense for us.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this sounds a very expensive proposition with no AP credit allowed, travel costs, visa fees etc wow

Study abroad programs inherently require extra costs, and joint programs like these that are 2 and 2 are like study abroad on steroids. So yeah. Not for everyone.

Plus if you live in VA, you have to pay OOS tuition. That was a deal killer for us.

But you aren't technically paying OOS to UVA. you are instead paying St Andrews fees directly to St Andrewws (which is lower than OOS to W&M) Of course SA wouldn't care about deals for instate Virginia s nor woukd I expect it would

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this sounds a very expensive proposition with no AP credit allowed, travel costs, visa fees etc wow

Study abroad programs inherently require extra costs, and joint programs like these that are 2 and 2 are like study abroad on steroids. So yeah. Not for everyone.

Plus if you live in VA, you have to pay OOS tuition. That was a deal killer for us.

Really? Do you have a cite for that?

https://www.wm.edu/as/undergraduate/more-pathways/standrews/financial/#:~:text=Tuition%20and%20fees%20will%20be,fines%2C%20personal%20expenses%2C%20etc.

Second paragraph (“there is no in state tuition for the JDP…”)

thanks

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have experience with this program? I have a kid who is intrigued by it and would love to hear more.

What's the student's social experience like? Do they get to join clubs, activities at each place? Do they feel part of each commjnity>
How many kids are in it each year? Do they stick together - is this their friend group?
How does housing work at St A's? Is it provided or do they have to find off campus flats?
Can they double major or minor in something else?

Take an anxiety pill

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where does it state that this particular programme’s graduates are eligible for any UK work visa? Don’t see it on W&M site and one would think that would be emphasised as a bonus for participating in the programme.

So per the JDP website, for US or international participants in the programme: "UK student visa maintained while at W&M". They get the equivalent visa as if they were spending four years at St Andrews (not individual visas for each year spent at St Andrews). Outlined here: https://www.wm.edu/offices/revescenter/issp/visasandimmigration/standrewsjointdegree/

So if the student graduates with a St Andrews degree (they get one from both unis), they can apply for the UK graduate visa whilst their UK student visa is still active. This is a well trodden path by international students in the UK, and the JDP students are eligible as they meet all the criteria.

^^your link states nothing about US JDP students working post-graduation in the UK

If my assumptions are correct that all JDP students receive a St Andrews degree and are on the same tier 4 UK student visa that other internationals are on: then upon graduation, they can can go to (or remain in) the UK, apply for, and receive the UK graduate visa. They meet all of the eligibility requirements.

UK student visas are issued with grace period months at the end following graduation. E.g. if it was issued in the fall of your first year, it will end in the fall four years later, giving you multiple months after graduating to apply for and receive the UK graduate visa. It is issued normally in under a month.

I could be wrong if either (a) not all JDP students get a St Andrews degree, (b) they are on a different visa (what would this even be?), but I don't think I am.

Per Cambridge's guidance on the grad visa: https://www.internationalstudents.cam.ac.uk/graduate-visa#:~:text=The%20minimum%20period%20of%20study,included%20in%20the%20minimum%20period.

"The minimum period of study for the Graduate visa is at least 12 months OR the full length of your course, whichever is shorter. Permitted 'study abroad' activities (i.e. activities that are undertaken overseas as part of a course) or time spent overseas during permitted breaks from study such as during official vacation periods or at the weekend can be included in the minimum period."

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have experience with this program? I have a kid who is intrigued by it and would love to hear more.

What's the student's social experience like? Do they get to join clubs, activities at each place? Do they feel part of each commjnity>
How many kids are in it each year? Do they stick together - is this their friend group?
How does housing work at St A's? Is it provided or do they have to find off campus flats?
Can they double major or minor in something else?

better read Reddit and old Flat Hat articles

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where does it state that this particular programme’s graduates are eligible for any UK work visa? Don’t see it on W&M site and one would think that would be emphasised as a bonus for participating in the programme.

So per the JDP website, for US or international participants in the programme: "UK student visa maintained while at W&M". They get the equivalent visa as if they were spending four years at St Andrews (not individual visas for each year spent at St Andrews). Outlined here: https://www.wm.edu/offices/revescenter/issp/visasandimmigration/standrewsjointdegree/

So if the student graduates with a St Andrews degree (they get one from both unis), they can apply for the UK graduate visa whilst their UK student visa is still active. This is a well trodden path by international students in the UK, and the JDP students are eligible as they meet all the criteria.

^^your link states nothing about US JDP students working post-graduation in the UK

This program sounds very interesting. Is it generally harder to get into this joint program than getting into "regular" W&M? Also, somebody mentioned a similar program for Columbia and Trinity. Is that program also harder to get into than applying to "regular" Columbia? Are there other similar joint programs like these?

Anonymous wrote:Where does it state that this particular programme’s graduates are eligible for any UK work visa? Don’t see it on W&M site and one would think that would be emphasised as a bonus for participating in the programme.

So per the JDP website, for US or international participants in the programme: "UK student visa maintained while at W&M". They get the equivalent visa as if they were spending four years at St Andrews (not individual visas for each year spent at St Andrews). Outlined here: https://www.wm.edu/offices/revescenter/issp/visasandimmigration/standrewsjointdegree/

So if the student graduates with a St Andrews degree (they get one from both unis), they can apply for the UK graduate visa whilst their UK student visa is still active. This is a well trodden path by international students in the UK, and the JDP students are eligible as they meet all the criteria.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this sounds a very expensive proposition with no AP credit allowed, travel costs, visa fees etc wow

Study abroad programs inherently require extra costs, and joint programs like these that are 2 and 2 are like study abroad on steroids. So yeah. Not for everyone.

Plus if you live in VA, you have to pay OOS tuition. That was a deal killer for us.

Really? Do you have a cite for that?

https://www.wm.edu/as/undergraduate/more-pathways/standrews/financial/#:~:text=Tuition%20and%20fees%20will%20be,fines%2C%20personal%20expenses%2C%20etc.

Second paragraph (“there is no in state tuition for the JDP…”)