Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:
1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track
2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093
"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."
Finally someone who gets it. If we had the German model then all minority kids would be selected for a vocational track. No thanks.
Freedom isn’t free. Our flexible labor market and freedom is why our country is so powerful economically.
It's not just that the US can't be trusted with this model, it's that the very system OP is lauding was found to be violating the human rights of second-generation Germans, kids who were born in Germany and raised there. The system simply could not identify university potential if it came in brown skin.
Or, the kids of 80 IQ immigrants weren’t on average as smart as the German kids.
Anonymous wrote:Can somebody point me to the cut auto program or when it was discussed at a board meeting? I missed the announcement.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:
1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track why do you think people with brown skin can’t get good grades?
2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093
"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."
Finally someone who gets it. If we had the German model then all minority kids would be selected for a vocational track. No thanks.
Freedom isn’t free. Our flexible labor market and freedom is why our country is so powerful economically.
It's not just that the US can't be trusted with this model, it's that the very system OP is lauding was found to be violating the human rights of second-generation Germans, kids who were born in Germany and raised there. The system simply could not identify university potential if it came in brown skin.
Anonymous wrote:My American friends has two kids in the German system (their dad is German). Her middle school aged kid is in therapy because of the anxiety caused by school and the need to get perfect marks to stay on the college track. It's lots of pressure and the teachers don't mince words if you get something wrong. I'm really glad my kids aren't in that system.
Anonymous wrote:Different schools for those on a university path vs a vocational path. Of course that can’t happen here due to equity . But you have to admit German schools produce much better results .
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I actually agree with you OP, and I’ve lived in Germany. But the US would just not accept it, because our race/class system has developed in such a way that many parents believe that vocational work is beneath their children.
Agree. I think the German system is pretty good in that it values all people. A country needs welders and machinists more than they need time-wasting lawyers and the mediocrity that ends up in human resources. But American society is much more complicated than German society. Just try telling a black or asian parent that their kid should go to vocational training. Tracking isn't going to work in America. What will work is establishing specialty high schools that focus on vocational training. And then the good outcomes become their own advertisement. Those kids will get great jobs. And the demand for those schools will become self-perpetuating. Americans respond to choice, not 4th grade tracking.
Anonymous wrote:The only issue I have with vocations is that they often involve physical labor. That may be okay in your 20s and 30s but after that, I can't imagine doing that physical work into my 60s.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP,
I get it. I think a lot of people posting don’t really understand how the German system works. It’s not as if you are doomed to some low-level, unimportant job if you fail to show success in 4th grade.
The school choices and offerings are robust and they make sense. No, not everybody should go to college. And it’s not just because of intellect/ability; society doesn’t need everybody to go to college.
German vocational programs are robust, and they lead to very important jobs that provide for stable living. Their on-the-job apprenticeships set students up for success in a way we don’t.
I wonder how it works in practice though. Personally, I was a middling student until 8th grade, when something clicked and I became a superstar. Valedictorian, Yale, successful lawyer, blah blah. If you'd tested me in 3rd or 4th grade who knows where I'd have wound up. I didn't even test into the gifted program at my school in 2nd/3rd.
I see the same path in one of my kids.
I am strongly in favor of vocational training but not tracking students at an early age. 9th or 10th grade is soon enough.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:
1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track
2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093
"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."
Finally someone who gets it. If we had the German model then all minority kids would be selected for a vocational track. No thanks.
Freedom isn’t free. Our flexible labor market and freedom is why our country is so powerful economically.
It's not just that the US can't be trusted with this model, it's that the very system OP is lauding was found to be violating the human rights of second-generation Germans, kids who were born in Germany and raised there. The system simply could not identify university potential if it came in brown skin.
Anonymous wrote:I actually agree with you OP, and I’ve lived in Germany. But the US would just not accept it, because our race/class system has developed in such a way that many parents believe that vocational work is beneath their children.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:
1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track
2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093
"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."
Finally someone who gets it. If we had the German model then all minority kids would be selected for a vocational track. No thanks.
Freedom isn’t free. Our flexible labor market and freedom is why our country is so powerful economically.