Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 18:27     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is a great way to end up with terrible schools, unless you make up for the lost revenue with another form of taxation.


Live in a no state income state. When we moved here (from DCUM), I was expecting property taxes to be really high (how else do you fund schools and such). Bought a home worth double, and my taxes were 75% of what I paid in HoCo. Schools are similar quality. However, current schools are severely underfunded and much of what makes them "great schools" is the local school foundation (donations from parents who know we need more $$$ to keep the schools great, to offer Art and Music in ES, etc).

So yeah, lower PT and no state income taxes is not the best idea---it works in some areas, but most where it works in our area have donations


Are you in Seattle? Literally, the same experience as PP.
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 18:17     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Anonymous wrote:This is a great way to end up with terrible schools, unless you make up for the lost revenue with another form of taxation.


Or, hear me out: they don't pay for schools with property taxes. Crazy, right? Maybe they make it more equitable by paying for schools from state collections so every school district receives equal money.

đź’ĄMind Blownđź’Ą

Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 17:58     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I generally agree that property taxes are bad overall, as they tend to be utilized for richer areas to support more local services and thus not spread the tax revenue more widely.

But doing something like this without a connected income tax increase to balance out the revenue is insane.

Michigan significantly reduced local property taxes 30 years ago and increased income taxes by 50% at the same time to balance it out.

https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/a_refresher_on_proposal_a_and_local_property_taxes


Yup! The money for services has to come from somewhere. IMO, property taxes ensure (in most states) that your local schools are well funded (because you are paying for your local schools with PT) as well as police, library, fire, and other important services every one needs (and for schools you are paying for the benefit of society as a whole).
You can choose what type of home to live in and how much to spend (and consequently how much PT to be paying). If you don't like higher taxes, you are free to move to a smaller home.
I like that better than just increasing income taxes (or having any income tax at state level at all)


The downside of this is if property taxes are high and there are no state income taxes, then the elderly are hit hard when they retire and have no or much income. So they continue to pay high property taxes. I would rather see lower property taxes along with state income taxes so that when people no longer have as much or much income, they are not penalized.
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 17:44     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Anonymous wrote:There will be no money left to fund local government services. Eliminating property taxes creates a funding shortfall equal to 75% of current spending on K-12 schools. Voters are going to approve this without realizing that sales taxes and income taxes will need to increase to make up for this loss in revenue.


Most people are selfish and republicans, more so. If they have kids in public school they may care, but otherwise why bother?
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 17:14     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
There will be no money left to fund local government services. Eliminating property taxes creates a funding shortfall equal to 75% of current spending on K-12 schools. Voters are going to approve this without realizing that sales taxes and income taxes will need to increase to make up for this loss in revenue.
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 16:35     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Fleecing the poor as usual.


The poor don't own property. (ALthough seniors on fixed incomes might).


Umm, the poor have to live somewhere. Landlords base their rent on their total costs---if PT goes up, so does the rent
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 16:14     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Here’s a truly democratic idea - have all current public school tax allocations evenly distributed throughout the state.

Or even better, evenly distributed nationally.

Have poor kids receive same educational funding as the rich neighborhoods.
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 16:02     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:https://www.marketwatch.com/story/north-dakota-voters-could-end-property-taxes-and-pour-gas-on-the-spark-of-a-growing-tax-revolt-f32ae8db

If the ballot measure passes, North Dakota would become the first U.S. state to end property taxes. Its passage could also add muscle to the push to eliminate the tax elsewhere, property-tax skeptics say. The idea has been floated in states like Texas, Nebraska and Michigan, while lawmakers in the Great Plains and Mountain West states say big reforms are needed quickly.

Property taxes are the “most egregious and least moral of all the taxes,” according to Rick Becker, chair of the organization that put Measure 4 on the North Dakota state ballot. The ballot measure would repeal residential, commercial and agricultural property taxes, he noted.

These taxes uses opaque formulas to make homeowners keep paying for property they already own, he said. They’re also based on the “unrealized” paper value of a home, he added.


How would no income tax and no property tax work?


Prayer and koolaid.
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 15:38     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In NYC there is even something more cool. In Soho and Tribeca there is a handful of small older coop buildings where coop owns the first floor rental commercial property space.

The rental income is so high the building pays no monthly maint charges and in fact some get rebates every year. A coop includes, property taxes, heat, hot water, gas so those people only pay the electric bill each month.

They now sell for a lot but older people who bought have been free riding for 30-50 years



Yeah, but at least that's the market at work. Obviously one very clear benefit of the Co-op vs. the Condo structure (where in the Condo scenario the developer would still own the retail space and not share that with the Condo owners).


And one disadvantage of a coop---you have to follow all the rules that 6-8 older "owners" sit around and come up with. You get told who can sublet your place or not. You even have to get approval for your 25 yo kid to live there instead of you (and sometimes they say no). I'll take a condo any day.



Well, yeah. We want to control who lives in our building. We sold the shares to YOU, not your kid. Your condo can turn into an AirBNB flophouse.


A good condo building will not allow that to happen. I cannot rent my condo out for less than a 6 month rental, it's part of the HOA rules. Also, most condo buildings in our city have limits on the percentage of units that can be renters. That helps ensure enough owners actually live in the building and still care about day to day life.

And yes, if I own a 1 bedroom in any city (NYC, Chicago, SF, or elsewhere), I'd like to be able to have my own 25yo professional kid live there if they work in that city. I refuse to own a place where my kid would need to sit for an interview. Or really anywhere that I NEED to sit for an interview and provide references before I can be approved for "purchase".

I should not need to get approval for that. Hence why I don't own a coop, because I want to actually own my unit and renovate it as I see fit (within the basic rules of the HOA---such as flooring must meet noise reduction requirements).
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 15:35     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Anonymous wrote:Fleecing the poor as usual.


The poor don't own property. (ALthough seniors on fixed incomes might).
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 15:34     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Anonymous wrote:https://www.marketwatch.com/story/north-dakota-voters-could-end-property-taxes-and-pour-gas-on-the-spark-of-a-growing-tax-revolt-f32ae8db

If the ballot measure passes, North Dakota would become the first U.S. state to end property taxes. Its passage could also add muscle to the push to eliminate the tax elsewhere, property-tax skeptics say. The idea has been floated in states like Texas, Nebraska and Michigan, while lawmakers in the Great Plains and Mountain West states say big reforms are needed quickly.

Property taxes are the “most egregious and least moral of all the taxes,” according to Rick Becker, chair of the organization that put Measure 4 on the North Dakota state ballot. The ballot measure would repeal residential, commercial and agricultural property taxes, he noted.

These taxes uses opaque formulas to make homeowners keep paying for property they already own, he said. They’re also based on the “unrealized” paper value of a home, he added.


This is so strange as ND is a conservative state and conservatives have long advocated for consumption taxes instead of income taxes.
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 15:31     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Anonymous wrote:The problem is, where will the state get their money for public services?

Or is everyone going to be nickel and dimed for every service?

This hurts the poor, as usual. They don't own property, and now they're going to get fewer services.


You pay for property taxes even if you rent...it's just thru your rent. If PT go up, your landlord will raise the rent accordingly.
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 15:13     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In NYC there is even something more cool. In Soho and Tribeca there is a handful of small older coop buildings where coop owns the first floor rental commercial property space.

The rental income is so high the building pays no monthly maint charges and in fact some get rebates every year. A coop includes, property taxes, heat, hot water, gas so those people only pay the electric bill each month.

They now sell for a lot but older people who bought have been free riding for 30-50 years



Yeah, but at least that's the market at work. Obviously one very clear benefit of the Co-op vs. the Condo structure (where in the Condo scenario the developer would still own the retail space and not share that with the Condo owners).


And one disadvantage of a coop---you have to follow all the rules that 6-8 older "owners" sit around and come up with. You get told who can sublet your place or not. You even have to get approval for your 25 yo kid to live there instead of you (and sometimes they say no). I'll take a condo any day.



Well, yeah. We want to control who lives in our building. We sold the shares to YOU, not your kid. Your condo can turn into an AirBNB flophouse.
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 15:09     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
The problem is, where will the state get their money for public services?

Or is everyone going to be nickel and dimed for every service?

This hurts the poor, as usual. They don't own property, and now they're going to get fewer services.
Anonymous
Post 10/21/2024 15:06     Subject: North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax
Defund the public schools!